Could it be that one of the great discoveries will be that the early Christians were Torah Observent like Jesus Christ?

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Permalink Reply by Darren on July 29, 2010 at 11:26am

But history also tells us that Christians were not welcome at synagogues. Many early Christian had to flee Jerusalem to escape persecution from the Jews. In fact that was Paul’s task to find and kill Christians for the Jews he was headed to Damascus.

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, Acts 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

The “way” is early Christians. And Saul who later became Paul persecuted and help execute Christians. Paul might have been the most zealot Christian killer but he was not the only one. Many early Christians had to pack up and flee for there lives to Arabia Egypt and other places. So I do not see that many of the early churches had much to do with the Hebrew faith. Christianity is and entirely different we have no need for temples there is no holy of holies and there never will be again. GOD dwells in out hearts our bodies are the temple now. I like celebrating the holy days of the bible and each and every one is a fore shadow of Christ. I use the Pass Over and other traditional Jewish holidays to teach about Christ which would be blasphemous, except that we are Christians.

The early church was unlike the Hebrew faith they meet in homes not some building set aside for worship. They were children of God not just some chousing people. Jews are the chousing people I believe they still are and God has a purpose for them yet, that is why Satan’s people like those at the United Nations are still trying to destroy them. But we as Christian are more that chousing we are we are alive with Christ. Any Jewish person no matter how devout they are will not go to heaven with out believing that JESUS CHRIST or as some might say Yashua Messiah. How ever you say it we know who he is.

There was a split in the early church, those who needs a building and more visible presents of there faith and those who keep with simple faith in Christ. Those who wanted to be more like the Jews established church building and later cathedrals. They had to have a high priest like the Hebrews so they appointed a pope. They had to have a central location for there temple like Jerusalem was to the Jews. They established the Vatican. Were as the other just keeps the traditions simple and they became the Anna Baptist. They were persecuted by the established church. The Catholic Church is much like the old Synagogues model though over time it has morphed into some thing that looks different. Though to be fair the Catholic has a heavy Pagan influence in there traditions and very much so in there holidays. The Jews as far as I know do not have any paganism in there traditions and holidays.

I think Messianic Christians are just fine and consider then brothers and sister. But the ones who keep there church simple and not try to form some establish synagogue type place because I found when they do that they become arrogant an proud has been my experience with them. I also find most to charismatic for me. But I love em anyway. I am not into it because I am a gentile Christian all the way, my ansister were from a Northern Scotland Island, Ireland and Native American so it is very much in ought that I might have ant Hebrew blood at all. But I do love celebrating Holy days with Messianic worshipers. Expert Pass Over that should be only reserved for you and your house church only it is a special somber time to reflect.

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Permalink Reply by Rod on August 7, 2010 at 10:53pm

I was reading the 119th Psalm today and saw 

many references to the law. Viola was cool

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Permalink Reply by Rod on August 28, 2010 at 8:45am

If you look up the word "commandments" in a concordance you will fine Christians commendment keeping from one end of the New Testament to the other:

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1Cr 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

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1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[deleating some references for clarity]

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Permalink Reply by Oliver Elphick on August 30, 2010 at 7:01pm

The commandments that we are to follow as Christians are not the Torah.

First, if you are going to keep Torah, you have to keep ALL of it: James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he has become guilty of all.
That means all 613 commandments, including circumcision and temple sacrifices, and keeping the sabbath (Friday evening to Saturday evening), not mixing different kinds of yarn in your clothes, stoning to death children who are persistently disobedient, and so on. That isn't what you are actually advocating, Rod, is it?

In any case, Paul tells people who are not circumcised not to have themselves circumcised. (1 Cor 7:18) But circumcision is one of the core provisions of the Torah; and it is often referred to later, with "uncircumcised" being used of those who are not obedient to Torah.

What does Paul have to say about Torah? Romans contains the key teaching. Paul's message is (a) that all are guilty under the law (Torah) (Romans 2:10); (b) that the Torah was a pedagogue (a slave who had the responsibility of going everywhere with a boy and guarding him from evil influences) to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:24); (c) the purpose of the Torah was to make sin abound (Rom 5:20), that is, its task is to show up our sinful nature; (d) we are united with Christ in his death and resurrection and therefore we are dead to the Torah; just as a wife is freed from marriage by the death of her husband, so we are free from the Torah by our identification with Christ's death (Rom 7:4).

As a result of being freed from the Torah, we are made free to keep the law of Christ written in our hearts (Rom 8:2). That law repeats what we call the moral law, but it does not repeat the majority of the Torah. Neither does it repeat the sabbath commandment, because we also read, "Let no man therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day," (Col 2:16) On the other hand, Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man, so we can legitimately derive a command to rest regularly and, more importantly, give our dependents and employees time to rest as well.

The commandment that we are to follow above all is to love God and love one another. (And love means seeking the best welfare of someone; it does not mean having sentimental or romantic feelings about him.)

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Permalink Reply by Rod on August 30, 2010 at 10:50pm

Thanks for your reply Oliver, Jesus says I have not come to do away with the law. He who teaches the least of my commandments will be great in the kingdom. When we read Romans we need to also read: What should we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certianly NOT! (capitiliziation and explanation added for emphasis).

The reason I feel I should rest on the Sabbath is because our Lord and savior rested and sanctfied the Sabbath. As a slave of Christ and his forthcoming bride I feel I should understand how He would want me to live.

We cannot keep every law in the Torah. We cannot for example decide that we should be a Levite and do things that Levites do in the Temple for example. Similarily we would not things that women do(if we are men and vice versa).

I believe that we should keep the commandments speritually. Just not commiting adultry is not enough! We should not even look at a married woman with lust.THIS is the speritual keeping of the commandments . I think the commandments tell us how to love man and God.

I see keeping commandments as something that will be benificial for mankind. In the Kingdon it will be Good because people are keeping the commandments. But this is not my idea it's our Lord's idea and in the NT....for our good.

I read recently just by chanch in Acts 18 that Paul is keeping Nazarene vows.
There are scriptures all through the New Teestament where Commandment keeping is urged and finally we have them in Rev chapters 12 and 14.

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Permalink Reply by Oliver Elphick on August 31, 2010 at 2:10am

There is no harm in choosing to keep parts of the Torah (except that you are forbidden to be circumcised if you are not already), and the spiritual implications of the laws were in the OT as well as the NT. The real point is, from Galatians, that you must not imply that keeping Torah is an obligation on anyone. This is where parts of the Hebrew Roots movement go wrong. Some of them like to argue that gentiles should start to keep kosher, at least to the extent of the Levitical food laws.

When you say you believe you should rest on the sabbath, do you actually mean Friday evening to Saturday evening? or do you use sabbath to mean Sunday? The reason I ask, is that nothing at all in the scripture allows the day to be changed.

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Permalink Reply by Rod on September 1, 2010 at 6:19am

One of the things that I have a problem understanding about the Hebrew Roots (and this goes to the Evangelicals also) is what sometimes seems that they think they can usher in the Messianic age by themselves building a temple.

While some point out health reasons to keep Leviticus Food laws it seems hard to prove because everyone knows of some who live to be 90 that did not eat them. Still just about everyone in the Bible dose almost as if a sign. The Bible somewhere calls the Sabbath a sign of God's people.

The actual keeping Kosher is based on complicated traditions based on the Mishnah which is not the written word and often confusing. They involve Orthodox Jews who are 6 percent of all Jews.

The thing interesting to me about the Sabbath is every seven days is a memorial of the first one after creation. Some will try and claim that the time has been lost but up until the electronic age you had Jews in different parts of the world all keeping the same unit of time. But whether you believe in "keeping it" or not it is still sanctified by God or Jesus as God given John 1:1.

Everyone has to decide which Torah laws apply to them. There is a Torah law about Oxen but today few have oxen but the spiritual keeping of that law might be that you are responsible for the damage caused by your animals. Every now and then one hears of a dangerous dog that has hurt someone. Well if they were following that Torah Law no one would of gotten hurt. So to me Torah Law is a good thing it seems to me. If I had a dangerous animal I would keep it from hurting people influenced by (among other things) wanting to keep the law and obey God.

All Kingdoms have laws. We are told in Isaiah that the Law shall go forth from Jerusalem. Well that means to me that in the Messianic Age God's law, the Torah, will go from Jerusalem where Jesus returned will be. It will be good.

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Permalink Reply by Rod on October 3, 2010 at 1:50pm

Jesus says you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. He said this speaking to the Pharisees and Jews of his day. Today only a small percentage of practicing Jews keep the law but that's also true with Christianity! Yet Jesus said, I have not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill them.

Paul similarly says What shall we say then is the law sin?

You might think so if you listen to contemporary religionists of our day. Religionists would have you believe it's sin to keep the commandments! But Paul says certainly NOT! I would not have known what sin is except for the law.

We are told in Revelation that those Christians who do not worship the beast will be obeying God's commandments. We are told that Satan makes war with Christians who keep God's Commandment and in Revelation 22:14, Blessed are those who do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city. These are the Christians I hope to be among. This is why I am a legalistic Christian.

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Permalink Reply by Jimmy Nduruchi on May 23, 2011 at 2:47pm

Thank you everybody for your good contri. The commandments of Jesus Christ are not the torah but love. When Christ arrived in flesh, the torah has actually replaced love with hate. Indeed Pharisees hated in the name of torah.

Christ says in John 13:34- A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you. He repeats this in John 15v12, and again in John 15v17. It is love that Christ commanded us to have. Love for God and love for neighbour.

It has been my prayer that I may go beyond self and love others without a shadow of pretence. This is the hardest thing to do, and the Lord is giving me grace to do it. I have been seeking for connection with others with the same desire to love. I am finding them; they are quite many, and together we are changing the world.

 

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Permalink Reply by Rod on May 24, 2011 at 11:08am

It seems to me that the ten commandments,which are important part of the Torah show us how to love God and man. Who would not want to love God the way he says and in the first four commandments and be loved by others by the last of the six of the ten commandments? Jesus  says He did not come to do away with the Law and not the hearers but the doers.

 ² “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

 ³ “You shall have no other gods before^[a] me.

 ⁴ “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. ⁵ You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, ⁶ but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 ⁷ “You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

 ⁸ “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. ⁹ Six days you shall labor and do all your work, ¹⁰ but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. ¹¹ For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

 ¹² “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

 ¹³ “You shall not murder.

 ¹⁴ “You shall not commit adultery.

 ¹⁵ “You shall not steal.

 ¹⁶ “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

 ¹⁷ “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Permalink Reply by Jimmy Nduruchi on May 24, 2011 at 1:00pm

You're right, Rod. Everything ends in love. Vertical love--love for God and horizpntail love--love for one another. And without love we cannot enter heaven, no matter how much noise we can make, or how much we can give or avoid sin. God Himself is love.

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Permalink Reply by John Tyler on May 25, 2011 at 10:50am

Great discussion! I'm on the side of those who are arguing that the Law is there for people who have not chosen Jesus. Most of the OT commands are negatives - don't do x, y or z. Jesus' commands, including the ones he picks from the ten commandments, are all positive - love God, love your neighbour, love each other, make disciples. I no longer need to be told not to treat my neighbours with disdain, because I have chosen Jesus, who tells me to treat them with love.

From the point of view of society, this is an important social lesson. We hear a lot about 'human rights'. My neighbour doesn't need 'rights' if I (and everyone else) have a sense of 'responsibility', in other words, show love and respect.

From the point of view of our relationship with God, there is an important spiritual lesson. According to the scriptures, no one can be saved by the Law and we all fall short of God's glory. I cannot keep to the Law. I'm just a human being. It is impossible. BUT, HANG ON! YEEAAAHH, Jesus has already paid for my human failings!

Of course, all of us in this discussion know this. But what else does the NT say about the Law? If I try to live by the Law, then I will be judged by the Law. If, on the other hand, I live for Jesus, then I will  be judged as one of his own. That's what scripture tells us. The Law has not passed away. It is still there for those who need it. But for everyone who has accepted Jesus' free gift of life the Law is no longer relevant. We have a better way to live, a better vision to guide us and a more certain promise for the future.

Well, that's my thinking, but I hope the discussion can carry on because I'm enjoying the different perspectives. One day we'll all know the perfect answer,  but, till then, I guess we have to follow what the Spirit tells us through our consciences and our reading of scripture. God doesn't always make it easy for us, but he sure makes it interesting!

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