I"m trying to understand but not getting it!

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 27, 2009 at 2:43am

Thank you for your thoughts Ryan and your extremely good questions. But I am sad that you had to leave a congregation and just take solice by your self in your home or with another small group of people who have run from a church. I don't know who is in your fellowship, but I am certain that eventually someone will emerge to 'lead' it. How they lead should be governed by the words in the New Testament about elders and deacons.

As a Pastor, had you been in the church I serve I would have been broken hearted to have stumbled on your words on this website. I guess I am silly enough to think that all pastors try to serve the congregations where God plants them, as I have tried in my career. Everything you describe is exactly the church that I believe God is leading me to build together with others. But it takes a critical mass of workers to have an effective body. It's not just about listening to sermons and studying the Bible. It's about descipling others into deeper faith. That takes teachers, prophets (preachers) apostles (leaders) helpers, givers, and all the other spiritual gifts mentioned in Romans and in 1 Corinthians. I used to pastor a church of 12. Eventually it just died. New people came but did not stay because we could not meet their needs (bible studies for children, teens, and age-group adults. We couldn't have the fancy contemporary worship team because we didn't have the offering income to sustain professional quality musicians. So, we politely burried my little church after seven years and tried to rebirth it together with a larger one. I have since moved on to other struggling churches. I work a day job and pastor in addition. I'm a Tentmaker pastor.

I try to design a church structure that is team based and operated under the authority of scripture and the Holy Spirit. I allow the membership to hold me accountable even as I hold them accountable. So, all those negative suspicions you gave voice to above would break my heart had I been your pastor. I would have rather you followed Matt. 18 and come to me with your thoughts and ideas before just leaving the church and trying to reinvent it all on your own. But, I don't know if you did that or not. I hope so.

I'm still trying to understand but everything I read tells me that what I am trying to do with this Instiuttional Church is exactly what OC advocates say they are seeking. I don't understand why they all have to run off and gather in someone's back yard under a palm tree and reinvent when they could serve the local body of Christ and assist them to become the Holy Spirit centered body that the Lord wants. I'm still trying to understand. Thanks for responding.
Pastor Dan

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 27, 2009 at 2:59am

I'll reply to both your posts here. Thank you so very much for the insights. Yes I have ordered those books but they have not yet arrived. I will read them. Not because I want to close my church's doors and run home to start another group. I want to serve the people God has given me and teach them all-- all 75 of them-- to become the kind of Spirit-led belivers and unconditionally loving Christ-centered persons that the New Testament describes. That is what I preach. That is what I was trained to preach. That is what I was called by God to preach. Like Paul, I will never preach any other message and will eschew anyone who does. But why do it in my livingroom?

I have been given 75 people who gather once a week and some more to share that good news with. Should I send them all home to languish in small un-led groups with no training and little spiritual wisdom? That is what it looks like to me that the organic or house church groups I have seen on this website have done. I still want to know if they bothered to try to help the pastor, board, and members of their larger IC local congregation before deserting them to house churches? And, the sociologist in me still believes that given a few years,-- if they even last-- they will just grow into another 'denomination.' That is what happened to my denomination that started in 1895 as precisely the kind of thing OC people talk about. The house groups quicly grew into churches. Churches merged with churches and become conferences. Conferences merged with conferences and became regions. Regions merged with regions and become the international (holiness) Church of the Nazarene. I have witnessed the same sequence with Vinyard and Calvary Chapel.

So, I am still seeking to discover what OC advocates are promoting so we in the local congregation I serve can be sure that, if it is truly scriptural, we can offer it. Maybe we'll have several OC style groups that make up the whole congregation. What say you about that? As long as Christ is head and the Holy Spirit leads us as a body of believers, what does it matter if we are 'organic' or associated with an organized body.

What I read in your last paragraph sounds a bit like the hippies of the 60's "3 )... and they should have a community life.. a shared life.. that happens 7 days a week where Jesus Christ is central and pre-eminent in ALL things." Do you mean that we should all quit our jobs and run off together someplace and make a commune where we have this shared life you talk about? I can think of some noteworthy people who have done that and it ended in disaster! David karesh, Jim Jones, et al.

I still believe we ought to help our existing churches instead of making new ones to further confuse the unbelievers. I think the multiplication of new 'denonomations will be a tool of satan to undermine the work of the whole Body of Christ. I hope it's not so but it looks that we to me at this point of my investigation. Keeping an open mind though and still looking. Thanks again for helping me with your comments.
Pastor Dan

Permalink Reply by Rod on August 29, 2009 at 5:57pm

Pastor Dan:What I read in your last paragraph sounds a bit like the hippies of the 60's "3 )... and they should have a community life.. a shared life.. that happens 7 days a week where Jesus Christ is central and pre-eminent in ALL things." Do you mean that we should all quit our jobs and run off together someplace and make a commune where we have this shared life you talk about? I can think of some noteworthy people who have done that and it ended in disaster! David karesh, Jim Jones, et al.

Rod: No we don't all have to quit our jobs but maybe we could be friends. Jesus says in John to love one another but often what happens in the institutional church is we don't even know each other. I experienced that and tried to do something. I tried to invite people out boating like I did with real friends. But people from the institutional church have the institutional church paradigm. And there are plenty of places for them to go to and we don't mean to interfer or put them out. That's because God gives the paradigm. We recognise that. Karesh and Jones had extremely institutional churches is my concept.

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 31, 2009 at 12:59am

Thank you Rod. I appreciate you joining in and sharing your ideas helping me to get what it is that an OC is and does.

So, then, since you believe those horrible abusive groups (Jone, Koresh etc) were ICs then I guess you are saying that IC does not necessarily mean a denomination. Is that right? Could a single small local house group or 'so called simple church' could also be an IC because of the way it does business?

Hmmmm, OK, well then the converse of that logic would also have to be true. An OC could also be a larger group that just happens to be associated with a denomination, and happens to have designated pastors-- even paid ones-- and elected leaders, and happens to follow a particular schedule of events if all these things are Holy Spirit lead. Is that an accurate statement?

Yes we MUST all love one another, because Jesus demands it. Not only that, he makes it possible. So I'll will love people who worship in an OC as much as those who worship in an IC.

Funny, I just finished responding on a whole other discussion forum trying to promote less hostility and more unity between some folks bent on arguing whether James Arminus or John Calvin were more correct in their theology (such a waste of time when there are people who need to know the Lord and others who need discipling.)

Now I am back into this board and trying just to find out how people view this thing called an Organic Church. I find myself dealing with people's projected hostility against any organized church, denominational or independent, just because the two or three they went to left them with bad experiences. Wouldn't that be a bit like me stopping watching any and all football games because one team in one game I saw didn't play like I wanted them to play? In my work life I am a professor, teacher, and scholar of a certain field (not Bible and Theology). We are careful in making projected conclusions to never make statements that facts cannot substantiate. And for me to make a statement like this--
"The Institutional Church is not demonstrating the Biblical Merits of the true Body of Christ."--
Is both incoherant and outright wrong because it would be impossible to prove. I would have to have clear criteria of what the desired church should look like, and then visit for some days in each and every so-called institutional church everywhere and make notes of my observations in a strict systematic way. Then I would have to analyze those notes for specific data that prove the statement. Crazy right?

But that is what I seem to read in many of the posts. No data and a generalized projection criticizing anything that anyone wants to charactarize as an 'Institutional Church' Because people were unhappy in a former one that seems to fit Frank's descriptions from his books. I think there is some merit in the Lord's commands to us to not 'judge' others of the body. I could extend that to being about congregations too, I suspect.

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 30, 2009 at 8:33pm

Brother Ron
Please accept an apology from this Pastor for the behavior of that brother pastor. I know it can be hard to take criticism and the Bible centered teacher must always learn to do that. Had someone like you shared concerns with me I would have tried to listen, understand, clarify and, if possible adjust the circumstances so that your biblically based ideas could help make us stronger. That is what I would recommend any pastor brother or sister to do when a visitor or member has ideas to share. We are to be mutually submissive to each other in this body of Christ.

in a church of that size-- I've never actually lead one but I've been in them-- it is in the small groups that the intimacy and individual pastoring happens. We have around 75 and there is no way I can directly interact with each of them every week for their spiritual growth. So we have small groups, trained group leaders who are really like those i read about in these OC groups. They are associates in pastoring, together with me and the other bivocational ministry members of our team. So it seems that we can be a collection of OCs under the umbrella of a quasi IC that is very flexible about all things EXCEPT the supremicy of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, was it an OC that closed after seven years of trying, or a small IC?

BTW I lifted you in prayer today-- I don't know why, just felt impressed to do so.

Your servant,
Dan

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 28, 2009 at 7:28pm

Ron, you are so helpful and patient in continuing to engage with me on this great topic.

Let me reply to your thoughts with my responses.

to me, the church is not a building or a denomination or all the Chrisitans in the world... it is, as Paul so aptly puts it, the Body of Christ. Jesus Christ is the Head of His Body the Church.. and as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ....
So the Head and and the Body are not separated ( don't we often say, Jesus is in heaven and we're here on earth?).
He is the One New Man and we're individually members of His Body.

I couldn't agree more. I see me and the 70 or so saints in our part of the body as inclusive together with you and the saints in the house group you serve.


The church isn't even 'people'.. as some enlightened Christians say. The Church is Jesus Christ in people.
That's not splitting straws... that's a very significant Reality that gets distorted by our current mind-sets.

Agreed as well

A shared life is more than a weekly meeting..... which, by the way, should be for Him, around Him, and to Him and by Him... It's all for Him. (Romans 11:36)

In complete agreement. And still I see no need to disperse our current 70 and dispose of our faculities. I see, instead, that we should make greater use of these to allow smaller elements of our folks to have that close-knit disciple-building meetings. Some for elders. Some for working couples, some for teens, some for young teens, some for singles. And the collective body worship celebration weekly and other times as well.


God is a corporate God.. and wants a corporate family. We will never get to Him as individuals in the same way we'd get to know Him in our "natural habitat"... the ekklesia.

this thought loses me. I don't get what you mean. I have to disagree if you mean that I can't come to Christ as an individual seeking redemption through faith. As I read scripture that is the ONLY way I could have come or you either.

Now, Ron, speaking as a trained leader, a sociologist, and a trained educator, you have to recognize that there are certain sociological principles that come out when any group of people, small or large, assemble. Eventually someone will begin to lead. You say it is the HOLY SPIRIT and I would hope that to be true. But I have to tell you, that you must recognize the many times when I tried to believe it was The Holy Spirit, only to discover it was fallen selfish human nature that was moving in the small group. So, eventually when there is a difference of what 'we' should do together at a given time, someone will lead until a resolution of the difference comes about. You know that is true. Even the ancient quakers who gathered and simply waited for the Spirit to move, had a widely agreed strategy to verify it was the Holy Spirit and not a human one or an evil one. I don't know what you guys do together in a meeting but I would almost bet you have such a strategy. Then, you have INSTITUTED a procedure. You are, thus, and institutional church-- just small.

I'm signed up for a OC seminar next month. We (the associate pastor and I-- who are both tent-maker ministers) are going with some of our elected local leaders to learn about it. Why, because it reinforces exactly what we have been building toward this past 18 months-- a church devoted to Christ as head, where leaders are called by the Holy Spirit and serve not control-- where every participant is loved unconditionally and equipped to grow in Christ and disciple others, all the things you describe. We are hoping to have those groups meeting in homes all week and coming together on Sundays for larger group sharing.

So, from your perspective as one who thinks of himself as having escaped from an institutional church, if you were now among our members, would you still be lead to go away and start your own church? Just curious.

Pastor Dan

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 29, 2009 at 2:30pm

Thank you, so much, brother Jim, for continuing to take this time to enlighten me.

I have read your post several times trying to separate out the ideas in your one long continuous paragraph. It is rich with them. You are helpful at trying to teach me about your perspectives on the OC movement. I do hope I have successfully communicated that I see little difference between us than organizational structure and a 'free structure.' I see we both are seeking the Holy Spirit's leadership with whomever in the Body of Christ we are called to serve, unconditionally love, teach, and disciple at any level.

I wonder, could you email me an 'official' statement of faith description for your particular OC congregation? Don't post it but email it. I'm going to ask others and I don't want to promote a comparison among you all about what each is saying. That could be viewed as divisive and that is the furthest thing from my mind in engaging with you, Ron, and Frank on this topic. Also, any 'agreed-upon' procedures that might describe to me how 'church' would work were I a visitor to your OC congregation.

My books still have not come so I can't read them though I did find one site that posted parts of chapters of Franks books and read some of those.

My title "Pastor Dan" is something the people gave me. I use it because it conveys their love for me and my connectedness to serving them without limit. It reminds me that Jesus called me to serve, and placed me with this congregation through events completely outside my influence to serve them. When I teach, I serve them. When I help with church business (paying bills etc) I serve them. When I chair board meetings and subcommittee meetings I serve them. And I see my purpose in such service as always, always, always focusing them on the Lord's call to 'go and make disciples, teaching them to obey all that I have taught you. . . " Therefore that title usually is not out of pride but out of obedience to God's call. I didn't ask for it it was bestowed.

If I asked for a title it would have to be Dr. Dan Elliott, or Rev, Daniel C. Elliott, Ed.D.-- because I earned each each of those through academic hard work. But I don't ask, even in my role as a professor at the university. I just receive what God prompts others to use.

I used it in this setting to convey that I am a pastor engaging in this discussion to discover how to better serve the people I am called to serve through discovering what OC is all about. I won't continue doing so.

You said of your structure (or rather, non-structure) It's not always tidy, but it works when people engage with humility (VERY important!) and with a loving commitment to the edification of others.. Interesting because that is precisely how I seek to promote the development in our structure too-- Holy Spirit lead. That requires teaching. Teaching requires planning. ("Study to show yourself approved a workman to the Lord correctly dividing the Word of Truth. . ."). I seek this through the Holy Spirit in prayer, preparation, planning, and then complete release to the Freedom of The Spirit in our meetings. So, it still seems that you and I talk about the same thing with numbers present being the only distinction. Perhaps after I get and read Franks books I can better grasp it.

I think part of the differences you and I are experiencing in perspectives comes from the type of IC you are recalling. I read what you wrote about it and identify it as a presbateryan type of structure and not a congregational one. Ours is more of a congregational one with only minimal control by central bureaucracy. And even that is loosing force-- probably one reason our denominational leaders are encouraging us as pastors to become familiar with the OC and how to promote it within our local congregations. Yes some church denominational structures are smothering and quench the Spirit at the local level. Yet others are so free as to not have any safeguards against deceiving practices. You are well aware of that part of history of the church as well no doubt. If all in the local house church are baby Chrisitans, who will bring them wise doctrine? Where are the 'apostles' prophets and teachers' to come from. Even Holy Spirit giftedness requires preparation. The Word clearly says never permit a new believer to accede into leadership until he or she has matured in the Word and in their walk.

For leaders like you, Ron, and Frank how do you deal with this in promoting the OC movement?

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 29, 2009 at 2:07pm

Thanks Ron, your responses continue to enlighten me. I wonder, could you email me an 'official' statement of faith description for your particular OC congregation? Don't post it but email it. I'm going to ask others and I don't want to promote a comparison among you all about what each is saying. That could be viewed as divisive and that is the furthest thing from my mind in engaging with you, Jim, and Frank on this topic. Also, any 'agreed-upon' procedures that might describe to me how 'church' would work were I a visitor to your OC congregation.

Non of what you have said really distinguishes you from the image of the local congregation-body-of-Christ that I am trying, through the Leadership of God's Holy Spirit, to promote in the congration I have been assigned by God for now to serve. I sure hope that OC people don't become so pejorative against church groups like ours that they see themselves as somehow qualtitatively better. I pray we all can remain united in The Body of Christ in mutual love and respect.

Permalink Reply by Rod on August 29, 2009 at 5:28pm

Hello Dan, I have been a follower of the Organic Church idea mainly as written about by Frank Viola in such books as Pagan Christianiy and Reimagining the Church. The institutional church has a hierachy and a set order of the meeting. Many of the components of the institional church such as the hierachy, the order of the service, dressing up for church the building come not from the bible but were added on centeries later. The Organic Christian hopes to meet under the influence of the holy sperit and not forsaking assembling as some do but to encourage one another before His coming. We do not follow a man but our high priest, Jesus Christ and are accountable to him. We have the concept that Jesus conducts the meeting by inspiration during the meeeting. A typical meeting might be people sitting aroung eating a meal in a living room then singing from a hym book that we flip through as we agree on until there is a kind of consensious. Then whatever is on everyone's mind. The meeting is not led in the mannor maybe that Quaker meetings are not led. Here are some notes that a friend sent me from a conference about Organic churches:Organic church conference 7/18

Frank viola 7/18
Are you a supperfest? a shrunken church, a glorified bible study?
Church is the life of god expressed in community. Chrisf was the first expression of this as the trinity had community that expresed God.

Anyone can start a meeting... But that isn't community!
Not the living breathing house of God... We learn from our experience.

There will not be a pastor in the group
The group will have christ as the head
The meeting will have endless variety with everyone functioning
There will be shared life-- and JC will be seen and expressed through the members!
God isn't looking to visit but to dwell!! A home where he is in charge.

You cannot produce what you have not experienced!

Church is a garden, Christ is the foundation, the architect and Paul is a sent one, a gardener... It was his gift.

All of the churches in the new testement had a worker who would show gods people how to know Christ, how to share, how to strengthen the passive ones how to share and how to help the overfunctioners know how to step back and show hen christ, they also help the church go through a crisis. They are an outside force that will help guide and direct the church as they become the house of God.

Many pastors are called to be workers. Workers are all people who have been a regular brother who have been a part of the church, they have been sent out and knew what thy were doing because hey had experienced it. They are safe to Gods kingdom.

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 30, 2009 at 8:16pm

Hmmmmm, I see. That set of notes gives me a picture... 5 to 15 people sitting around on furniture in a living room just waiting for something to start. Someone says let's sing_____ and if there is consensus, you sing it (with our without instrumental accompaniment). Some one begins and just shares a scripture and someone else a comment. Then other scriptures, then other comments. And you choose to believe that this is all orchestrated by the Holy Spirit and that there is an overarching message via the impromptu shared scriptures and comments. Am I closing in on what this OC thing looks like in practice? No planning, no preparation by individuals called by God to teach or mentor, no guidance by individuals ordained by God to glorify Him with skills in music, singing and instruments, just all impromptu responsiveness to the moment? If I sound negative, I apologize I'm not trying to. But it does sort of sound a bit dangerous especially for new believers who won't know what scriptures to share or if their 'comments' are theologically accurate. Sounds like persons in such a setting could get easily misled. Jesus had much to say to the churches in Revelation chs 2-3 for misleading members of his body with human inventions.

Feel free to amplify or correct my misunderstanding if I have misunderstood what you described. Thanks again
Dan

By the way, at the little church I serve-- that IS an extension of an evangelical, Bible teaching denomination-- we do not require dress code standards. We have an order of worship but that is merely to prevent chaos and disorder-- something that Paul wrote strong words about in 1 Corinthians. We change the order a lot as persons get ideas and thoughts of ways to enhance worship, prayer, singing etc. Today I have folks come up to the Lord's Supper table after prayer and individually share the elements. Sometimes We serve it and take it all together. Sometimes we share it in triads or duos. About the only thing that is consistent is that I share a message from the Lord-- because that is what I am called to do-- obedience you know. And that message is prayerfully worked out under the leadership of the Holy Spirit.

But we are very flexible with what you all seem to call structure. I shudder to think what kind of rigid churches you all must have come out of. Hard for me to imagine. Are you happy and growing in the Lord now in your small group home church? If so, then that is what counts. But our folks are also growing in the Lord. I hope that is ok with folks in these simple churches or organic churches. I should not denigrate what you do and you should not denigrate what we do-- we are all united in this Body of Christ.
Blessings in His love.

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 31, 2009 at 11:46pm

Dear Ryan, sorry about the name mix up. I am flying through these posts pretty fast trying to gleen all the info I can.

Again, I'm sorry for how you were treated by a pastor but I have to wonder if it was real or perceived. Sometimes, when our ideas are not immediately accepted we choose to interpret that as rejection when if the truth could be told there may have been many other issues causing the inability to make the suggested adjustment. For one, you may have been the ONLY one suggesting or wanting it. I can't know, of course, but that sort of thing has happened to me in churches too.

May I say this and ask you to see a loving and caring heart in it not criticism? When you say
"My deal is if "real ministry" and "real church" I think happens in small groups then why not make that the meeting? That's the time where people really get to know each other to the pt. where they can fulfill the one anothers." I both agree with you and it hurts me a bit because I tend to take it as a criticsm. Ryan, I pour my heart and soul into serving God and those of His people He has sent into our church. I believe that what we do IS 'Real ministry." I believethat those who will embrace it togther wth the rest of us are also doing REAL MINISTRY. I also agree that small groups are real ministry and work tirelessly to promote them. I hear what you say about centralized curriculum and I promote curriculum that is BIBLICALLY based and unique for each small group according to those who are members: singles, teens, twentysomethings, young parents, senior citizens, new believers, handicapped individuals etc. And, I just let the Holy Spirit do the coordinating between what the groups discuss and what He leads me to preach on Sundays.

One of the things that jabs at me as I read all these things in this network is the never-ending jabs, arrows, and sometimes hatered generated toward me-- as representative of a church they call IC. My goal is to make our local congregation just as sensitive to the Holy Spirit as all these OC's describe (but I have to wonder if they really achieve it). I don't see any reason why it won't happen as we commit to praying, caring, and sharing under the Lord's leadership.

I'm not sure I see that 'shared life' the way you do from Acts and the Epistles. There were definite instructions given on how to organize and structure the church. There were roles assigned and there were means by which leadership was formally bestowed (the laying on of hands and prayer-- commissioning) expressed throughout the Acts and the Epistles. There were also many scriptures given for correction to missteps in church organization (speaking in tongues etc).

Have you ever looked up the definition of 'institution?' Once you have established a group that meets in your house or someone elses, and have set up consistent processes, behaviors, and common mission, dear brother Ryan, I hve to say that you have created a new institution because you have 'instituted it.' What you eschew is merely a much older version of what you created.

Do a google search or wikipedia search on The Plymoth Brethren church. You will find its practices precisely like those that members of this forum have described to me and yet they began in the 1800s. As amorphous as they might sound in their procedures they have very rigid rules about who could enter a particular group. They ended up with status lables for how long you were in a group. I am just learning about them in my research but you might be amazed at what they turned into. They began to die eventually like all new church starts. So, let me encourage you to keep eyes on Christ, listen to the Holy Spirit as confirmed in The Word more than on this forum, on the particular author who promoted this idea at this recent point in time and on people who persist in trying to build something up (an oc) by tearing something else down (an IC). If it is not of God you don't have to tear it down, just leave it alone. If it is you don't have to build it up if it is. I think we just need to exercise the love described by our Lord and by God's Word and tell HIS story not our own.

I lifted you in prayer again and especially that you find the place for body-life Christian growth that you and your precious family are needing, seeking and hoping to find. I think you would have much to contribute but commitment would be a first step to getting to make that contribution. As a pastor, I pray for people who will stay the course with me in seeking Christ first in all things, at all times and in all ways.

Blessings in His love
Dan

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on September 2, 2009 at 2:10am

I pray you are continued in His Blessing in whatever fellowship He plants you next. I'll probably not be posting as much here for some time. My day job is heating up because the students are back and my case load to help other profs with online courses intensified as of today. Also, I'm initiating a 30 days to a prayer-powered church series using Peter Lundell's book Pray Power: 30 Days to a stronger Connection with God. I have our whole body reading it and I'm building my sermons around the scriptures discussed in the seven days of devotionals each of the next four weeks. Getting ready for that has convicted me that I don't spend enough time in intercessory prayer so I decided tonight that the time I spend on the internet has to take a back seat to increasing prayer for my people and others. So don't be worried if I don't respond to yours and the others posts. I'm still interested and still getting those books to read.

Be uplifted in the Lord's Love at all times
Dan