Speaking in tongues

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim London on March 3, 2011 at 6:00pm

Thanks for bringing forward some thoughts that contribute to the musings that I've had over these texts for decades. One of the benefits of hearing each other!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John Tyler on March 4, 2011 at 11:46am

I think that both Jason and Oliver make perfectly valid points, and this brings us back to the question of how one reads scripture, and how one's reading compares with one's experience of God's work in one's own life.

 

I have a friend who once comforted a grieving Cypriot woman. Some of those present were somewhat surprised to realise that the woman spoke no English and that my friend spoke no Greek, let alone the local dialect. This, then, was clearly a case of the Spirit giving her the gift of being able to speak in a different tongue to another person.

 

I have never received the gift in this manner. On the other hand, I sometimes praise and speak with God in a language which is unintelligible to me and, as far as I know, to anyone else.

 

The exception to this last case is when, as occasionally happens, I am prompted to offer a message to  a gathering and there is someone present to interpret the message. In my case, this may be an interpretation of a language known only to God and thus given by him through the other person. However, I have also heard someone else bring a message in French and another person has translated it to English, not using a spiritual gift, but knowing the languages!

 

We should not take one passage of scripture and use it to 'prove' that another passage is wrong. Whenever we find ourselves in the situation of turning somersaults to try to explain what Scripture means we are clearly in trouble. Surely we can accept that He may have us do things in different ways. God does not say, 'This is what I mean by tongues and this is how they will always be used.' God rarely limits himself, and we should not limit his ability to act through us. The Spirit gives gifts as he sees fit and to whomever is best suited at that time to deliver them effectively. He is capable of doing so in different ways,  but only if we are open to his leading. When we try to impose our own rules on the use of spiritual gifts we prevent the Spirit from acting through us.

 

In fact, there are several helpful scriptural guidelines about the use of spiritual gifts during a gathering of the faithful, but only one absolutely firm rule, and it applies in all situations, places and for all people. It is that spiritual gifts should always be used with love.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jim London on March 4, 2011 at 1:25pm

John, these are very helpful words of wisdom that you have spoken into this discussion: "We should not take one passage of scripture and use it to 'prove' that another passage is wrong. Whenever we find ourselves in the situation of turning somersaults to try to explain what Scripture means we are clearly in trouble... God rarely limits himself, and we should not limit his ability to act through us. The Spirit gives gifts as he sees fit and to whomever is best suited at that time to deliver them effectively. He is capable of doing so in different ways,  but only if we are open to his leading. When we try to impose our own rules on the use of spiritual gifts we prevent the Spirit from acting through us."

I am grateful for having read them. They are God-guidance for all of our searching together. Thank you.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jimmy Nduruchi on May 16, 2011 at 3:26am

Was Paul himself speaking in tongues or was he telling others about something he does not do like most people like doing these last days? Paul Himself says he spoke in tongues more than anyone else. Any spiritual gift goes to the one who HUMBLES himself and allows the direction of the Spirit. Without humility, no gift will manifest and everything will be an imitation of gifts, making it plastic and temporary (the purveyor often dies off within a short time). It matters not how many books we read. Let everyone doubting that tongues are a sign of being filled look dipper into themselves. They should accept that some things are still remaining and they need to deal with them. The Holy Spirit CANNOT dine with filthiness. When people have refused to repent and turn away from wickedness, the Holy Spirit will never be with them, whether they remain in institutional churches of join the organic church movement. Are we ready to afflict our bodies even with a fast of repentance? Are we ready to let go of self and allow Christ to fill us up? Unless we live holy lives, even the tongues we speak are profanities and blasphemies that we utter without understanding. I heard a man talking very absurd things in Zulu. The brother had been defiled by a prostitute and kept it secret. God is defined by His purity. Man is defined by his ridiculous flaws. God cannot change but man can change; is obligated to change and move towards Godliness through true repentance which brings in cleansing by the efficacious blood of the Lamb.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John Tyler on May 16, 2011 at 5:20am

I agree completely with you, Jimmy, that without repentance we cannot be filled by the Spirit; I also think that some people who claim (and maybe believe) that they are 'speaking in tongues' are actually 'babbling as pagans do'. As you say, it makes no difference what sort of a church you are part of.

I think the key phrase is 'When people have refused to repent...'. We all do things that disappoint and anger God,  but that does not cause him to withdraw his spirit. It is when we knowingly continue to do these things that things get really bad! Repentance is about turning away from our own path of self-love and taking instead God's path of Jesus-love. His path is narrow, and it is a lot easier to stay on it when we are filled with his spirit.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ross Reeves on May 17, 2011 at 11:00am

great conversations...

My perspective comes after reading Pagan Christianity; a post-institutional view.(& also a post-charismatic view)

I think all the gifts must mirror the Giver, the Holy Spirit. Spirit is described as organic & unpredictable. He is like fire, water, and the wind; so are the gifts. Whenever we start making rules for what is and is not 'proper', or 'historical', or in our own limited perspective, we are trying to control fire, grasp at water, or contain the wind. We cannot legislate the Spirit.

 

We can no longer view the gifts as in relation to our modern concept of church! The Charismatic & Pentecostal traditions have tried to mold the spirit into the confines of a religious system - that is why it has lead to goofy side-show carnivalism! The Spirit is power - the power to be healers, communicators, hope, deliverers, and to be the image of Christ. He is NOT the power to fuel a frenzied crowd, or pack a meeting, or give goosebumps, or million dollar checks!

The Spirit gives us the Power to minister as Jesus ministered, and to make disciples. Jesus said that He had to go away so that the Spirit that was with us , will be IN us.

specifically tongues: Fact: we know it happened. Fact: we know that Paul continued to do it. Fact: we know that it is a gift of the Spirit. Fact: Paul did not forbid it.

 

....I think we need to be careful about trying to restrain the Spirit & tell Him what he can & cannot do.  There is no rule book; we are to supposed to work toward maturity & help others reach maturity - through the guiding of the Spirit.

 

Until CE 30, there were no Letters of Paul, or Gospels; they were purely lead by the Spirit & mature apostles.

We too can find a balanced walk in the Spirit.

-Ross

(Yes, I avoided the tongues issue some, but thats the point. Scripture is limited in instruction on Tongues. We have the mature freedom to experience the Spirit in our own context. If Tongues is a divisive issue for you - leave it alone!)

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Mike Donahoe on May 17, 2011 at 12:32pm

In respect to this issue and many others in the Christian world today: Ephesians 4:30-32 -- And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you along with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. Now to me this brings to mind how we Christians seem to usually treat each other. Seems like we are so busy beating one another up, talking about each other behind the back, fighting and arguing over whose interpretation is right, which Bible translation to read or on this subject of tongues, that we forget we are all on the same team. We are all human, granted, and we are all going to make mistakes and fall now and then, but when we do, we don't need our brothers and sisters jumping on us and kicking us while we are down. It's time to stop grieving the Holy Spirit by such actions. We need to love and respect one another. We need to realize as Christians we still have different personalities, different ideas and different ways of doing things. We need to agree on the fact the salvation is through God's grace. Jesus alone is the way to the Father. Pretty much all other teachings in the Bible are a matter of interpretation and we need to accept one anothers views without fighting and arguing. We don't have to agree with these ideas, we just need to allow our brothers and sisters to be themselves and love them as God loves them. There are many thoughts and ideas out there, but that is between each individual and God. Salvation through Christ is the only point we have to agree upon. Let's stop arguing and start loving. They will know we are Christians by our love for one another. Thought: Stop worrying about the interpretations of others and concentrate on loving them as God loves you.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jimmy Nduruchi on May 17, 2011 at 2:49pm

Mike,

I agree with you 101. What most of us ‘Christians’ have failed to achieve is love. Paul wrote to Timothy about our days, calling them perilous times because the love of many would wax cold. Indeed we have so many Christians around the world filled with love. I have met men and women who truly have the love of God in their hearts. They are simply selfless. They have totally given themselves to service for others and therefore God. From morning till night, they think about others even to the expense of their own issues and grosses. They exemplify the love of Christ that moved Him to leave glory and come down to die for His friends, such a shameful and scandalous death. They follow the example of those that came shortly after Him and aped His love. One such man sold his land (all that he had) and brought the money and laid it at the apostle’s feet. He did not even live near Jerusalem where the apostles were, but lived way in Cyprus, in the Med sea. In fact he moved the apostles until they changed his name from Joses to Barnabas, meaning “Son of consolation.” The bible describes him as a “good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith” (Acts 11v24). In fact the church in Jerusalem sent him to Antioch and he exhorted the church there. And he was so full of love, that he went further to Tarsus, to seek Saul, the killer of God’s children. And he brought this changed killer back to Antioch and stayed there with him for a year teaching a lot of people with him. And it is here that the disciples were first called Christians.  

So how can we be filled with the Holy Ghost without love? How can we claim that the moment we accepted Christ into our lives the Holy Ghost came into us and yet we never stopped pretending with smiles that are not real like we had done before? How, I ask, can we claim to be going to the same heaven with those that we secretly hold judgements against? Even we who are in home fellowships—are we really loving everybody or only those who come to fellowship with us? I watch news and surf the net and look at how things are happening around us and around the world and I tremble. My friend who is a ‘Christian’ has two dogs and their budget every month is 40,000 shillings ($550). The man who takes care of them, and he’s married with a family and kids takes home $50 per month. When you go to the dust bins of ‘Christians’ you find a lot of wasted food. Instead of wild animals going there to scavenge, we now have human beings fighting with wild cats for food in dumping sites. This happens all over the world. Where is love in the world? Where are the children of the King who are supposed to follow the example of Christ and Spirit-filled people like Barnabas and love and give, and embrace and cherish unconditionally, unconditionally, I repeat?

And yet we want to still claim we have the Spirit of God in us; that blameless, faultless, immaculate, powerful, holy member of the Godhead with us? Let us stop lying to ourselves and to one another!!!

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on May 17, 2011 at 1:53pm

I'm very interested in this issue, but not in a hurry about it. The whole matter of spiritual gifts (except for the more usual ones such as teaching and edifying prophecy) hasn't come up in our group yet. We're probably divided something like half and half regarding charismatic/non-charismatic backgrounds. No one has suggested tongues should either be used or not used during a gathering, and I've not heard it done except for occasionally, very quietly during group prayer for one of us who was sick or hurting. Our gatherings seem to me to be growing deeper as we get to know one another and our Lord more deeply. I think God will bring in whatever He wants to bring in at the right time. So I'm content. But I've enjoyed reading everyone's input on this subject, and am expectantly waiting to see how God will address it in our group.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by John Tyler on May 17, 2011 at 2:24pm

Thanks, Cindy, for your words of patience; one of the flavours of spiritual fruit. I, for one, need frequent reminders to 'wait on the Lord'.Don't be too surprised if he decides to use you to introduce the subject! But as others have  already said, the issue isn't really about 'tongues', but about listening to, responding to and being used by the Spirit as he sees fit.

As for the varying backgrounds of your group, as the French say, 'Vive la difference!' I love Mike's final thought. (It reminds me of the lovely wedding speech from the brides father in My Big Fat Greek Wedding. '...we have oranges and we have apples, but in the end we are all fruit.') Having said this, the responses that people make when seeing the spiritual gifts in operation sometimes create unavoidable division. Both those who are not prepared to accept them and those who insist upon their essential use can be extraordinarily stubborn and combative. Why? Because they do not follow Mike's line, that they should focus on God's love and loving each other. Wow! If Jesus could love the extraordinarily diverse crew that he gathered around him, shouldn't we be able to do the same? Open ourselves to the guidance of the Spirit and of course we can!

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Ross Reeves on May 17, 2011 at 3:56pm

"

Interesting, I have read the blog regarding 'tongues' and respectfully I feel the author makes a couple of common mistakes, that of, one, saying that receiving The Holy Spirit at salvation is the same as Baptism in The Holy Spirit.
In John... 20:22 Jesus 'breathed' on the disciples and said, "receive the Holy Spirit", presumably they did? Chronologically very soon after in Acts 1:2-8 (the ascension) Jesus spoke to the same group of people( the apostles ) and told them to wait for the "promise of the Father" verse 4, then, explaining what that was, " you will be baptized in The Holy Spirit" verse 5, finally the purpose of the experience in verse 8, " to be witnesses for/to Jesus"
So if the apostles received The Holy Spirit in John 20:22 then What was Jesus is talking about in Acts 1? A separate experience? Not a saving one of course, but an empowering one. Not for entertaining the church but for evangelism, this of course was all the gifts of empowerment given by the Spirit of God, not just tongues.
As for it only being 'earthly' languages, Paul plainly states that God can use tongues as a means of speaking to the church, in a language that no one understands, which needs interpretation, see 1 Corin 14:5-15.

The second mistake that I feel the author makes is to state there is nowhere in the Bible that encourages 'tongues' for everyone. In 1 Corin 14:5 Paul plainly states that he "wished you'll spoke with tongues" why state that if it is not possible? I totally agree that it is not "nesassary" to speak/pray in tongues, but nesassary to, is different than desirable to.
Further Paul plainly states that praying in tongues is a means of edification for the believer, if this is so, why would I not want this gift, along with any other 'gift' of God through His Spirit?"

- a friend of mine, David

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Jimmy Nduruchi on May 18, 2011 at 2:49am

Hi Ross,

Exactly! Christ breathed on them, and indeed they received the Holy Ghost. What time does this happen? After they have believed that indeed He is risen from the dead. We know they believed because Thomas who was not with them fell short of believing and remained in doubt for 8 days until Christ appeared again. And with the breath of Christ they would forgive and retain sin (John22v23). This was important given the shaking that had come in their midst, where one of them, their treasurer, had betrayed their Master. Jews were looking for them to prosecute and kill them and so they were in a hiding place here. In fact Christ did not knock on that door, otherwise some would faint for fear (my own imagination). He simply stood in the midst of them. In this state they needed to forgive in preparation for the filling up that would soon come.

And you’re right, being filled is to be empowered; to be empowered to show forth fruits and works that reflect holiness and to preach the gospel with power, and to speak in tongues for prophesy and self edification. Indeed Paul writes to the Corinthians like this, “How is it then, brethren? When you come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.” In our home churches, we are given tongues and interpretation as two of the five key elements of edification. But some are doing three (Psalm, doctrine and revelation) and avoiding the two. Why?  Because religiosity and churchianity still pursue them after leaving their institutional churches. They say they are ‘not used to such things’. They somehow want to do things like they have always done, and not as the word of God says. Thus they don’t walk in the liberty of the gospel of our Lord, and so while in home churches they still remain bound. No wonder some home fellowships are only an extension of a “church service”, where there is a pre-organised, pre-planned rigid ‘program’ that has the Holy Ghost totally locked out. I have attended some and, oh, how dry!  

People fear talking in tongues and interpretation of tongues because they think this is easily faked. And indeed this is true. For instance last year we had one crazy ‘pastor’ here in Kenya teaching his followers how to speak in tongues. He would talk and the followers maim him, and repeat it several times. That was madness, of course! But this should not make us avoid getting the rightful power that our loving Living Lord gave us as a gift. We cannot stop enjoying our God because of the devil’s presence. The devil will always be there, but I have purposed to enjoy my God in his very face. Halleluiah!

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• Next ›
• Page