The Organic Church Movement - Real Fruit or Simply Going Rogue?

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Permalink Reply by Scott on January 18, 2010 at 1:36pm

You have about a 13,000 word post

Why not give me a short summary to see if it is worth my time to read. An abstract so to speak. I will read abstracts of scientific papers before I pic which one I will plow into.

Thanks

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Dwiggins on January 18, 2010 at 11:22pm

Scott - Good point. I would read the first 3-4 paragraphs and the last 3-4 paragraphs and decide from there. The article explores the core assumptions of the organic church movement, assessing them against the backdrop of biblical concepts of community and the identity and calling of the church. Relevant concepts include delegrated spiritual authority, discipleship and God's heart for community integration. These concepts are explored in context to the organic church movement. If it's not your cup of tea, so be it. Be blessed. Jeff

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Permalink Reply by Darin Struble on February 23, 2010 at 1:40pm

Interesting reads. I understand your comments, conclusions and warnings. Yet, I'm way more inclined to embrace Organic ideas after reading both articles than the institutional ones you promote and that I've been a part of for 35+ years.

I've been a pastor in three churches. During that period of 19 years, I've been "full-time". While I certainly can understand both of your scriptural explanations or counter arguments to Viola and Cole, I am still troubled by the abuse of power, lack of shepherding, and inability to equip the saints "to do the work of the ministry" in institutional churches (to use a Cole and Viola term). There is something to be said about Paul's repetitive theme of "Christ in you" and the "priesthood of believers" of Peter and John. I'm sorry, but priesthood of believers in Peter and John refer to much, much more than just praying or asking another man to forgive your sins. They are talking about functioning as priests. A priest does much more than pray. He offers sacrifices (worship), reveals the heavenly to the earthly (evangelism), bridges humanity to heaven (think ambassador of Christ) etc. That is for everyone not just a couple of guys who've gone to school and been ordained.

I agree that not everyone has the same gift from the Spirit. Yet, everyone has Christ (or Christ's Spirit) in them. So, while there may be individuals gifted in teaching, evangelizing shepherding, etc., everyone has the ability to express what Christ has taught them. Unfortunately, in pastor driven/led worship services only one person is the mouth. One or small few, becomes the resource for the community instead of Christ in each one. After reading all of Viola's books, I would say that his view of an Apostle is to equip a community of believers to live in their source (Jesus Christ) as individuals and as a community. That involves personal life as well as gatherings or meetings. To say that Viola is only about an Apostle teaching how to's about open-participatory gatherings is a misunderstanding of his books.

Viola, I believe, asks very legitimate questions about clergy/laity dynamics. His and Barna's belief that it has probably stifled the spiritual development and ministry of the laity, I feel, is legitimate. Their questioning of control to maintain the life of the institution is a significant one that I believe all pastors, elders and deacons need to ask honestly. Way too many are interested in maintaining their positions (salaries) and maintaining the good old days (remember Solomon warned against that) or pushing their vision onto their "flocks" without doing the work of persuading and working to not leave anyone behind spiritually.

Finally, I don't think Viola and Cole are pushing anything new. They are asking tough questions hoping for people to do the work of providing good answers about something that is very, very old. They are asking and wondering out loud if the church has been too easily influenced by the world in its practices. They are yelling "Wake up!" to a church that has been for too long slumbering in the pew while waiting for a man in the pulpit that they've paid to do the work of the ministry to finish so that they can go home to their compartmentalized lives.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 24, 2010 at 10:55pm

Viola is right that there is a problem when the people in salaried positions are doing all the work, and everyone else is content to show up on Sunday morning and listen to a sermon, and then go home. I agree with your statement that "Way too many are interested in maintaining their positions (salaries) and maintaining the good old days (remember Solomon warned against that) or pushing their vision onto their "flocks" without doing the work of persuading and working to not leave anyone behind spiritually."

But I think that I showed that much of Viola's solution is unbiblical. I demonstrated, for example, that the Bible teaches that there are church officers, and some of them should be paid a full-time salary for their work. If we believe that the Bible is God's word, then we have to trust that that is the best way to organize a church. The problem with the church must lie somewhere else.

The problem, as I see it from studying Scripture, is the weak, limited understanding that the Church has of her mission. This mission is the Great Commission - which is to conquer the world, in the sense of a comprehensive transformation of all of culture throughout the world by people believing the gospel and then applying all of God's word to every area of life. It's not just preaching the gospel in all nations so that a few can get to heaven. We should expect victory as the norm, although there will be times and places that are very difficult. We should not expect the Antichrist to take over the world in the next few years. That's a false, discredited view of the end times that has kept the Church in self-imposed defeat. I appreciate Cole's missional view of organic church in this regard. If we really believed that the fields were "white for harvest" we would be training workers to go into the harvest. The fact that we are not training workers for rapid church multiplication and application of the Bible to all areas of life is the source stifled spiritual development of the laity.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 24, 2010 at 11:48pm

Here's my paper where I present arguments on those issues:
http://www.christianciv.com/Immature_Organic_Fruit.pdf

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 25, 2010 at 12:25pm

Thanks for reading and interacting with my paper, Jim.

No, it is not fair to say that "the Bible does not teach that there are "officers" in the church, but that the Bible teaches that there are elders/ overseers." In standard English usage of the term "officer," the Bible's description of elders and overseers can be described as "officers." Merrium-Webster defines an "officer" as "a position of responsibility or some degree of executive authority." To cite one example, when "apostles and elders [not the whole church - contra Viola] met to consider this question" (Acts 15:6) of the obligation of Gentiles to follow certain Old Testament regulations, the council's "decrees to keep" (Acts 16:4) were delivered to all the churches. The word for "decrees" in Greek is "dogmata," where we get our words "dogma" and "dogmatic." It's the same word used for the decree of Caesar Augustus in Luke 2:1.

In his book Reimagining Church, Viola expresses a dislike for using words that describe the civil government to describe church government because that would mean that church government would operate just like civil government. It seems that you have the same bias. But that's simply not how language works. There are a variety of apples, with different flavors and other characteristics, but we can still use the word "apple" to describe them all.

I did not merely assert that "worthy of double honor" can include full-time pay. Despite Viola's claims that "double honor" and "do not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain" in 1 Tim. 5 means only "show respect" to an elder and not financial support, I point out that "Paul uses the same example of the ox treading the grain again in 1 Cor. 9 to prove that he has a right to 'reap material things from you' (1 Cor. 9:11) rather than 'working for a living' (v.6)." Viola has ignored the clear teaching of Scripture on this point, to the detriment of the Christ's church.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 26, 2010 at 4:36pm

If you have some different arguments, I would be glad to hear them.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 26, 2010 at 9:47pm

Jim,
It looks like you're right that our engagement would be unfruitful. Unfortunately your anti-intellectual, anti-Biblical-text approach to Christianity is exactly the type of spiritual immaturity that I argued the organic church movement produces. Christianity is more than exegetical debates, but that's still a necessary part of it, for reasons I explained in the essay.

Permalink Reply by Ron Kellington on February 25, 2010 at 1:21am

Mike, no offense brother, but you're so far from understanding 'organic church life' I don't even know where to begin.. what is "biblical"? information from the book filtered through your mindsets or through mine.... ? if the bible is the basis for 'church' ( which I thought was Christ's body ) how did the ekklesia function for so many centuries without a Bible? Not sure why you're here with this.. or who you're trying to affect with your opinions... I don't want opinions.. I want Jesus Christ.. and He lives in our hearts.. where we fellowship with Him.. AND..He lives in the hearts of my brothers and sisters, who, when they function and participate in 'church life'... esp. "organic church life"... then all kinds of things that make the Father happy happens.... soulish opinions and speculations that come from people who have not even lived in or experienced 'organic church life' do not have, IMHO, any validity at all.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Dwiggins on February 25, 2010 at 9:42am

Ron - With all due respect, you say that you don't want opinions but you start with an opinion that Mike and I know nothing about organic church life, which is false. On what basis do you put forth such an opinion? Secondly, what are you trying to say with your second statement, "what is "biblical"? information from the book filtered through your mindsets or through mine"? Are you implying that biblical truth is subjective and may vary from one interpreter to another? If your "filtered mindset" isn't trustworthy, how can you expect us to rely upon your subjective opnions about organic church? For someone who seems to be anti-opinion, you sure have a lot of opinions.

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Permalink Reply by Ron Kellington on February 25, 2010 at 2:20pm

Jeff, you are right. I should have kept quiet and passed over it recognizing which tree all this was coming from... including my comments.

So... briefly, then.." What does this 'organic church life' that you live in look like? I'm new to it.. only been at it a little over a year...

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Dwiggins on February 25, 2010 at 9:42pm

No worries, Ron. What does organic church life look like? Acts chapter 2 has it all - loving God, loving neighbor, breaking bread, teaching, fellowship, miracles, community, delegated spiritual authority, temple worship, house worship, salvations, favor with God. That is the organic church life as presented in God's word that I am shooting for. In my own life, it's not perfect, but what a model to build on! Keep loving God, Ron.

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