The Organic Church Movement - Real Fruit or Simply Going Rogue?

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Permalink Reply by Scott McCrae on January 18, 2010 at 1:36pm

You have about a 13,000 word post

Why not give me a short summary to see if it is worth my time to read. An abstract so to speak. I will read abstracts of scientific papers before I pic which one I will plow into.

Thanks

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Dwiggins on January 18, 2010 at 11:22pm

Scott - Good point. I would read the first 3-4 paragraphs and the last 3-4 paragraphs and decide from there. The article explores the core assumptions of the organic church movement, assessing them against the backdrop of biblical concepts of community and the identity and calling of the church. Relevant concepts include delegrated spiritual authority, discipleship and God's heart for community integration. These concepts are explored in context to the organic church movement. If it's not your cup of tea, so be it. Be blessed. Jeff

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Permalink Reply by Darin Struble on February 23, 2010 at 1:40pm

Interesting reads. I understand your comments, conclusions and warnings. Yet, I'm way more inclined to embrace Organic ideas after reading both articles than the institutional ones you promote and that I've been a part of for 35+ years.

I've been a pastor in three churches. During that period of 19 years, I've been "full-time". While I certainly can understand both of your scriptural explanations or counter arguments to Viola and Cole, I am still troubled by the abuse of power, lack of shepherding, and inability to equip the saints "to do the work of the ministry" in institutional churches (to use a Cole and Viola term). There is something to be said about Paul's repetitive theme of "Christ in you" and the "priesthood of believers" of Peter and John. I'm sorry, but priesthood of believers in Peter and John refer to much, much more than just praying or asking another man to forgive your sins. They are talking about functioning as priests. A priest does much more than pray. He offers sacrifices (worship), reveals the heavenly to the earthly (evangelism), bridges humanity to heaven (think ambassador of Christ) etc. That is for everyone not just a couple of guys who've gone to school and been ordained.

I agree that not everyone has the same gift from the Spirit. Yet, everyone has Christ (or Christ's Spirit) in them. So, while there may be individuals gifted in teaching, evangelizing shepherding, etc., everyone has the ability to express what Christ has taught them. Unfortunately, in pastor driven/led worship services only one person is the mouth. One or small few, becomes the resource for the community instead of Christ in each one. After reading all of Viola's books, I would say that his view of an Apostle is to equip a community of believers to live in their source (Jesus Christ) as individuals and as a community. That involves personal life as well as gatherings or meetings. To say that Viola is only about an Apostle teaching how to's about open-participatory gatherings is a misunderstanding of his books.

Viola, I believe, asks very legitimate questions about clergy/laity dynamics. His and Barna's belief that it has probably stifled the spiritual development and ministry of the laity, I feel, is legitimate. Their questioning of control to maintain the life of the institution is a significant one that I believe all pastors, elders and deacons need to ask honestly. Way too many are interested in maintaining their positions (salaries) and maintaining the good old days (remember Solomon warned against that) or pushing their vision onto their "flocks" without doing the work of persuading and working to not leave anyone behind spiritually.

Finally, I don't think Viola and Cole are pushing anything new. They are asking tough questions hoping for people to do the work of providing good answers about something that is very, very old. They are asking and wondering out loud if the church has been too easily influenced by the world in its practices. They are yelling "Wake up!" to a church that has been for too long slumbering in the pew while waiting for a man in the pulpit that they've paid to do the work of the ministry to finish so that they can go home to their compartmentalized lives.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 24, 2010 at 10:55pm

Viola is right that there is a problem when the people in salaried positions are doing all the work, and everyone else is content to show up on Sunday morning and listen to a sermon, and then go home. I agree with your statement that "Way too many are interested in maintaining their positions (salaries) and maintaining the good old days (remember Solomon warned against that) or pushing their vision onto their "flocks" without doing the work of persuading and working to not leave anyone behind spiritually."

But I think that I showed that much of Viola's solution is unbiblical. I demonstrated, for example, that the Bible teaches that there are church officers, and some of them should be paid a full-time salary for their work. If we believe that the Bible is God's word, then we have to trust that that is the best way to organize a church. The problem with the church must lie somewhere else.

The problem, as I see it from studying Scripture, is the weak, limited understanding that the Church has of her mission. This mission is the Great Commission - which is to conquer the world, in the sense of a comprehensive transformation of all of culture throughout the world by people believing the gospel and then applying all of God's word to every area of life. It's not just preaching the gospel in all nations so that a few can get to heaven. We should expect victory as the norm, although there will be times and places that are very difficult. We should not expect the Antichrist to take over the world in the next few years. That's a false, discredited view of the end times that has kept the Church in self-imposed defeat. I appreciate Cole's missional view of organic church in this regard. If we really believed that the fields were "white for harvest" we would be training workers to go into the harvest. The fact that we are not training workers for rapid church multiplication and application of the Bible to all areas of life is the source stifled spiritual development of the laity.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 24, 2010 at 11:48pm

Here's my paper where I present arguments on those issues:
http://www.christianciv.com/Immature_Organic_Fruit.pdf

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 25, 2010 at 12:25pm

Thanks for reading and interacting with my paper, Jim.

No, it is not fair to say that "the Bible does not teach that there are "officers" in the church, but that the Bible teaches that there are elders/ overseers." In standard English usage of the term "officer," the Bible's description of elders and overseers can be described as "officers." Merrium-Webster defines an "officer" as "a position of responsibility or some degree of executive authority." To cite one example, when "apostles and elders [not the whole church - contra Viola] met to consider this question" (Acts 15:6) of the obligation of Gentiles to follow certain Old Testament regulations, the council's "decrees to keep" (Acts 16:4) were delivered to all the churches. The word for "decrees" in Greek is "dogmata," where we get our words "dogma" and "dogmatic." It's the same word used for the decree of Caesar Augustus in Luke 2:1.

In his book Reimagining Church, Viola expresses a dislike for using words that describe the civil government to describe church government because that would mean that church government would operate just like civil government. It seems that you have the same bias. But that's simply not how language works. There are a variety of apples, with different flavors and other characteristics, but we can still use the word "apple" to describe them all.

I did not merely assert that "worthy of double honor" can include full-time pay. Despite Viola's claims that "double honor" and "do not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain" in 1 Tim. 5 means only "show respect" to an elder and not financial support, I point out that "Paul uses the same example of the ox treading the grain again in 1 Cor. 9 to prove that he has a right to 'reap material things from you' (1 Cor. 9:11) rather than 'working for a living' (v.6)." Viola has ignored the clear teaching of Scripture on this point, to the detriment of the Christ's church.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 26, 2010 at 4:36pm

If you have some different arguments, I would be glad to hear them.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Warren on February 26, 2010 at 9:47pm

Jim,
It looks like you're right that our engagement would be unfruitful. Unfortunately your anti-intellectual, anti-Biblical-text approach to Christianity is exactly the type of spiritual immaturity that I argued the organic church movement produces. Christianity is more than exegetical debates, but that's still a necessary part of it, for reasons I explained in the essay.

Permalink Reply by Jeff Dwiggins on February 25, 2010 at 9:42am

Ron - With all due respect, you say that you don't want opinions but you start with an opinion that Mike and I know nothing about organic church life, which is false. On what basis do you put forth such an opinion? Secondly, what are you trying to say with your second statement, "what is "biblical"? information from the book filtered through your mindsets or through mine"? Are you implying that biblical truth is subjective and may vary from one interpreter to another? If your "filtered mindset" isn't trustworthy, how can you expect us to rely upon your subjective opnions about organic church? For someone who seems to be anti-opinion, you sure have a lot of opinions.

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Dwiggins on February 25, 2010 at 9:42pm

No worries, Ron. What does organic church life look like? Acts chapter 2 has it all - loving God, loving neighbor, breaking bread, teaching, fellowship, miracles, community, delegated spiritual authority, temple worship, house worship, salvations, favor with God. That is the organic church life as presented in God's word that I am shooting for. In my own life, it's not perfect, but what a model to build on! Keep loving God, Ron.

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Permalink Reply by Darin Struble on February 25, 2010 at 12:22pm

Just a word of encouragement...

May we seek to see Christ in each other. May we prevent ourselves from sinning against Christ in each other. And may we humbly walk down the path of understanding the mind of Christ and the mystery of Christ in us of which Paul talked so much about.

Mike and Jeff. I do want to interact with you about this. I recognize that it will take some time because these types of "forums" are terrible in many ways. The first being the ease of misunderstanding heart. Still, Viola has struck a chord with me especially in his book "From Eternity to Here" though all of them have significantly resonated.

Mike in your reply to my post you said: "I demonstrated, for example, that the Bible teaches that there are church officers, and some of them should be paid a full-time salary for their work. If we believe that the Bible is God's word, then we have to trust that that is the best way to organize a church. The problem with the church must lie somewhere else."

I would say you did successfully show that it is possible for people to earn their living from the gospel. That is exactly what Paul said. Viola would not argue with you on that point. He argues that the itinerant gospel worker is the person Paul was talking about. Why? Viola would say because he/she is always moving. Is Viola's argument airtight? Maybe not as much or as less as some of us would like to think. While it is possible to be paid, does that mean it is absolutely necessary? Would you be willing to acknowledge that Paul did not think that it was absolutely necessary? Would you also agree that Paul would be open to a church organizing itself in a way where people were not paid? The reality is that all around the world there are thousands of churches that operate without paid staff. Amazingly, they grow, they produce mature fruit and most don't even have a whole Bible. How is that? I would suggest that their resource is coming from within. The thing that I'm beginning to see is that while there are definite things God wants His Son's body/bride/temple to do and be He leaves quite a bit of room for freedom as well. I'm beginning to think that it is because Christ in me and Christ in you will in a lot of ways be very similar yet also be unique in flavor as well.

Mike you also said in your post, "The problem, as I see it from studying Scripture, is the weak, limited understanding that the Church has of her mission."

In some ways, I would agree with your statement, but I think it goes back to an even earlier date than the great commission. That is why I really like Viola's book From Eternity to Here. In Exodus 19 God told Moses to tell the Israelites, "Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." The problem was the people balked. They choked. God wanted them to come to Him after they had consecrated themselves, but in Exodus 20 we read, "18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die." It's kind of like they would rather have one person get blown to bits than everybody. For sure they didn't want to have that type of interaction with God. Let's have His power when we need to kick some enemy butt. Let's have His power when we need food, but to actually live in the presence of that kind of power and be priests?! Huh uh. I'm sure they would have been very open to paying Moses to go up the mountain for them! So, God gives them what they want. A kind of distant relationship. A priesthood of select people. Yet, while He let them have it, it is equally true that it wasn't His complete desire for them. Could He use the system? Of course! Was it His complete thought? Hebrews tells us it was merely shadows of the heavenly realities God intended. So, Christ tells His disciples that it is better for Him to leave because the promised Spirit of Joel is coming. He tells them that He (the Vine) is their source. And when He comes they will do even greater things than He did. Paul talks about Christ literally being in believers and that they lacked nothing. On some levels they didn't even need a teacher to teach them. Peter connects Mount Sinai with the present and calls his readers a royal priesthood. John encourages his readers with the same thought of doing the work of royal priests as the end nears.

So... even that last paragraph is just a facet of God's eternal purpose for His people. Does it include the Great Commission? Yes, in that the Great Commission will naturally flow out of a people who maintain Jesus as their source, perform as His royal priests in a dark, sin lost world and minister and submit to each other in humility. It will come because it's part of the DNA. There is mentoring and learning, of course, but it's more a matter of understanding and living in source than being re-sourced.

All of this can happen in a church where people are paid to professionally teach and mentor. Yet, some questions to ask are how many can one person mentor, how wise is the use of resources, does the system create problems of laziness, and does it raise certain people to unhealthy levels above others?

Mike, in your paper, you assume that organic leads to immaturity. Could it be that you are overlooking the influence of the spiritual Fathers and Mothers in the community who persuade, exhort, watch over, pray, hold hands, walk through, etc. with those who are younger or weaker? Can an open participatory gathering be a place for immaturity. Yes! But it isn't doomed to it. That is why Viola so strongly believes in the itinerant gospel worker coaching and leading them from a distance as they live out the mystery of Christ in them as a community. Does an IC church always lead to maturity? No. "Organization" does not lead to spiritual growth and maturity any more than a really organized nursery leads to a baby growing. The growth occurs as a result of nurturing and healthy DNA doing it's job. Can an organic church lead to maturity? Yes. Can an IC church lead to maturity? Yes. Is the IC church willing to answer hard questions about their practices for the last millenium? Maybe? Is the OC? Maybe?

So far, my observations of 19 years of full-time, paid ministry have shown me that, at least in the churches that I've been involved with there is...
an unhealthy preoccupation with only being volunteers (so don't expect much),
an unhealthy preoccupation of leaving the work to the paid professionals or the limited number of body representatives,
an unhealthy preoccupation with the paid professional's shortcomings,
an unhealthy committment/preoccupation to a man being their source for food, leadership and guidance
and an unhealthy preoccupation with community being reduced to 1.5 hours a week

Could it be that a possible root for these problems is the clergy/laity system that has been created?

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Permalink Reply by Jeff Dwiggins on February 25, 2010 at 9:53pm

Darin – Many thanks for your thoughtful comments. I can tell you've meditated on this for awhile. That's great. Your remarks and observations are appreciated.

Your write, “in pastor driven/led worship services only one person is the mouth. One or small few, becomes the resource for the community instead of Christ in each one."

Darin, you continue to make the distinction between a 1.5 hour service and the community and body life that go on 24/7 apart from that service. Big difference. God has delegated spiritual authority to pastors (and others as well) to equip the saints and be a resource. That doesn’t mean He doesn’t delegate to others as well. What component of your calling in God or spiritual life are you not able to accomplish as a result of God delegating the microphone to a pastor for 40 minutes?

In my church alone, there are hundreds of resources, a thriving community of both leaders, followers, mature, immature and unsaved, focused on accomplishing His purposes both individually and corporately. We are part of something bigger than ourselves, something healthy and intentional in its relational structure as opposed to a self-centered, transient, leaderless community focused on meeting our own needs. This community functions all week long, not just on Sundays.

During the week, I often stop at the International House of Prayer (IHOP)and worship and pray over there. There’s a different worship team every two hours. The services have gone on for over 10 years, 24/7 with no breaks! People come to the microphone during prayer at various times during the meetings and share prayers, prophetic words, words of encouragement, etc. Trust me, these meetings get pretty “organic.” However, there is always a “prayer leader” functioning in authority if need be to help keep order.

Secondly, on several occasions I have heard Mike Bickle stress that IHOP is not a substitute for belonging to and serving in a local church. Thus, there is a local church within the IHOP community, Forerunner Christian Fellowship. Neither one are my home church. I love IHOP, but I love my local church community more.

Darin, you writes – “After reading all of Viola's books, I would say that his view of an Apostle is to equip a community of believers to live in their source (Jesus Christ) as individuals and as a community. That involves personal life as well as gatherings or meetings. To say that Viola is only about an Apostle teaching how to's about open-participatory gatherings is a misunderstanding of his books.”

Viola writes on page 153 of “Finding Organic Church” that “this community gathers often, not just once a week. And when the members gather, no human being is leading or facilitating. In other words, there is no pastor, no reverend, and no minister – whether titled or untitled. Instead, the members are gathering under Christ’s headship alone.”

Viola may not exclusively focus on open meetings, but he puts an extraordinary amount of emphasis upon it. There is simply a fundamental disagreement between us over what healthy, long-term community looks like. The members of my church gather together in smaller groups more than once a week. When we do gather corporately on Saturdays and Sundays, it is to celebrate what God has already done, in our community, 24/7 over the past six days, not to have a one-man show and cram a pastor-driven, spiritual snack into starving gaping mouths that haven’t bothered to feed themselves for a week. Granted, some are there to get fed, but that is to be expected in healthy churches that are doing their job of reaching the lost.

Look, we have been grinding in corporate America for six days, sharpening each other, praying for one another, dealing with work and family problems, and fighting temptations on numerous fronts. Throughout the week there are numerous home groups and prayer groups going on. Lots of cool stuff happens in those small groups. Lots of great stuff comes out of the grinding and fighting. The Lord intervenes. On Sunday we get to celebrate that.

Viola’s whole mindset, definition and characterization of “organic church” is far too limited. He expends all his spiritual and intellectual capital on that “evil” 1.5 hours on Sunday while virtually ignoring the community life that’s going on for the other 6 days and 23 hours. He writes as if vibrant, community life can only happen in organic churches without the presence of those greedy pastors. Very short-sighted. Pastors have an important purpose. You can't summarily dismiss it.

As I wrote in my paper, “We all want discipleship. We all want connectedness. Most of us want to get on the field and play our part. That’s not the issue.… What we must understand is that Christ- formation is a developmental journey best facilitated in “community.” I’m not talking about just any community. I’m talking about community rooted in healthy structure and a diversity of environments, certainly not just those on Sunday morning …

Romans 8:29 (LB) From the very beginning God decided that those who came to Him-- and all along He knew who would--should become like His Son… The church community should develop disciples. The organics surely agree with that. The second step, however, after agreeing on that end goal, is to define the outcome of a disciple - to lay out the content and roadmap that forms the common basis of community that best facilitates discipleship. Small groups must be part of that roadmap, but healthy churches don't delegate their entire identity and functionality to the home fellowship environment. The issue of balance is critical.

It is within this healthy community structure buttressed by godly authority that selfishness is replaced with selflessness, pride is replaced with humility, insecurity is conquered by love, and bitterness is replaced with forgiveness. In the end, the isolation and loneliness of the human condition is overcome by intimacy with Christ and His family in a loving community that is built to last, not disappear in six months to a year.

Blaming the pervasive ineffectiveness, indifference and laziness we find in the local church on the clergy/laity system is just that, playing the blame game without addressing the real problem of a limited, lackluster vision, as Mike said, of the church’s true and exciting mission of making disciples and being victorious in all areas of life. The way I see it, this preoccupation with salaries, positions and Sunday services can go both ways. One can become so preoccupied with not being preoccupied with these issues that his focus on Christ becomes diminished.

In truly healthy churches, there is no undue focus on these issues. Delegated spiritual authority works as it should. The fruit of true Godly authority is security, righteousness, maturity, order, freedom, vision, unity and peace …. not abuse of power. When you are about your Father’s business, you don’t have time to worry about the pastor playing his role. You just thank God for that pastor, keep doing what God has called you to do, keep on loving God and keep on looking for lost souls.

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