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Three totally different Christianities
When people comment about Christians and try to lump them up in one big group it is not fair, as well as totally ignorant. I know among the pysdo-intellectuals it vogue to make fun of Christians. To find something negative by some isolated group and to attach it to all Christians. Or to take history and attach it to all in the group around today.
Well there are three groups of Christians two of which have been separate from the beginning of the church. These the groups can be identified by what they think the phrase “the Church” means.
1) Define the church as: A universal visible church, They are the Catholics and there very name means Universal church. They view the Vatican as the church and the Vatican is very much real you can see it, tough it, The Catholic church is very old and claims to be the original church started by GOD but there is no evidence of this in any historical record. The historical record indicated that the Roman Catholic church stated after 310 A.D. There were no Popes before the expect that they claim Peter was the first Pope but offer no evidence of this. And the what about the 300 years between the next bishop of Rome who claimed to be pope. So historically the Catholic Church became around 310 A.D. They still exist to day big and powerful found every where in the world in every country in the world. They don’t fight wars of conquest any more or execute other non catholic Christian any more.
2) Define the church as: Universal and invisible, this group calls them selves or are labeled as Protestants, they come in many flavors Lutheran, Greek Orthodox, Anglican, Unitarian, Episcopalian, Methodist, Congregationalist, Reformed any others who refer to the churches as universal but not visible like the Vatican. The name protestant come from the meaning protesting many were protesting a view the Catholic Church took and left it. Some of the protestant churches left other protested churches. Some are not much different from the Catholic Church other than there rejection of the pope and thus the view of a visible church on earth. For the most part protestant churches do not claim to be as old or from the beginning of the church. They admit to coming out in some sort of reformation, Except the Greek Orthodox the oldest split from the Catholic Church. The very first Protestant. Split form the Catholic church in 869 ad But they claim that it was at Roman Catholics who split from them so I don’t care either way who left who but the view of the church went one way and the pope stayed.
3) Define the church as: Not universal but local and visible. They claim to be as old as church history it self and historical evidence shows that they are at least as old as the Catholics. They have gone by many names though out history. Paulicians, Waldenese, Cathari, Anna-Baptist and other names. Churches today that are related to these type Christians include some of the Baptist, Amish and Mennonites. In Europe they were never part of the State church and as a result were murdered and heavily persecuted. A real argument again church and state. It was the fears of early American Baptist that convinced Thomas Jefferson to assured that a State church would not rise up against them like in Europe. They were forced into hiding though out Europe from being killed or torched by Catholics and Protestants. Most of the witches burned in reality were anna baptist and not pagans at all. Even in American the Plymouth Congregationalist murdered in the public square Baptist. Funny how the pilgrims left Europe to flee from persecution and were them selves no different than those they fled from. Today in the freedom of American this Anna Baptist flourished and most of them are not much different from the protestant adopted there view of the church and even taken in Calvinism. The new resurgent of house churches might mean a return to the true church again and will be good preparation for upcoming persecution of Christian in America.
Well there are three groups of Christians two of which have been separate from the beginning of the church. These the groups can be identified by what they think the phrase “the Church” means.
1) Define the church as: A universal visible church, They are the Catholics and there very name means Universal church. They view the Vatican as the church and the Vatican is very much real you can see it, tough it, The Catholic church is very old and claims to be the original church started by GOD but there is no evidence of this in any historical record. The historical record indicated that the Roman Catholic church stated after 310 A.D. There were no Popes before the expect that they claim Peter was the first Pope but offer no evidence of this. And the what about the 300 years between the next bishop of Rome who claimed to be pope. So historically the Catholic Church became around 310 A.D. They still exist to day big and powerful found every where in the world in every country in the world. They don’t fight wars of conquest any more or execute other non catholic Christian any more.
2) Define the church as: Universal and invisible, this group calls them selves or are labeled as Protestants, they come in many flavors Lutheran, Greek Orthodox, Anglican, Unitarian, Episcopalian, Methodist, Congregationalist, Reformed any others who refer to the churches as universal but not visible like the Vatican. The name protestant come from the meaning protesting many were protesting a view the Catholic Church took and left it. Some of the protestant churches left other protested churches. Some are not much different from the Catholic Church other than there rejection of the pope and thus the view of a visible church on earth. For the most part protestant churches do not claim to be as old or from the beginning of the church. They admit to coming out in some sort of reformation, Except the Greek Orthodox the oldest split from the Catholic Church. The very first Protestant. Split form the Catholic church in 869 ad But they claim that it was at Roman Catholics who split from them so I don’t care either way who left who but the view of the church went one way and the pope stayed.
3) Define the church as: Not universal but local and visible. They claim to be as old as church history it self and historical evidence shows that they are at least as old as the Catholics. They have gone by many names though out history. Paulicians, Waldenese, Cathari, Anna-Baptist and other names. Churches today that are related to these type Christians include some of the Baptist, Amish and Mennonites. In Europe they were never part of the State church and as a result were murdered and heavily persecuted. A real argument again church and state. It was the fears of early American Baptist that convinced Thomas Jefferson to assured that a State church would not rise up against them like in Europe. They were forced into hiding though out Europe from being killed or torched by Catholics and Protestants. Most of the witches burned in reality were anna baptist and not pagans at all. Even in American the Plymouth Congregationalist murdered in the public square Baptist. Funny how the pilgrims left Europe to flee from persecution and were them selves no different than those they fled from. Today in the freedom of American this Anna Baptist flourished and most of them are not much different from the protestant adopted there view of the church and even taken in Calvinism. The new resurgent of house churches might mean a return to the true church again and will be good preparation for upcoming persecution of Christian in America.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Darren on -
Dear Brother RON
To be fair I wrote this for a different audience on a secular website forum but though it would be okay for a topic of discussion here. I get tired of hearing anti Christian rederic about the Spanish inquisition or Constantine how does that have any thing to do with me or the Salam witch trials since those Christian were not my brethren and they also killed my and I think your brethren. I mean The Pilgrims executed those who converted to Christian who believe like us. I said this before and I will say this again most of the witches burned in Europe from the medieval days and beyond were born again Christian like us. I study church history so knowing those above difference you call labels is important because when persecution comes again it will be from those in so called churches. A great white shark is just a label we give a certain type of fish but wouldn’t you rather they call it that than just say fish in the water.
The word ekklesia is not over in compassing of all churches. It simple means a place were you meet for worship. The body of Christ is the body of Christ a church is a group of people who make up the body of Christ and several many churches plural make up the body of Christ. We are all the body of Christ but not all the same church how we could be if we are not all in the same place at the same times. There are is 111 verses in the KJV referring to a church only few time can that be consider to in compass all churches as one church. Reading Paul’s writing he never refers to the church as the body of Christ that is just assumed by Christian. The most persecuted Christian though out history were those who did not believe in a universal church.
Matthew 16:18 tells us that the gates of Hell will not stand against Christ’s church. If we study Church history we will see that the gates of Hell has and still does in some places stand against a church therefore there is no universal church. This I believe was Jesus’ church that was made up of his apostles then they would later form there churches. In Acts 2:47 there were added to the church but this is all talking one place so perhaps the churches of that are or all to one church.
Galatia was a region in what is now modern day Turkey. Look at the way Paul address them. Galatians 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: Notice he didn’t say the Church of Galatia, no because it was a region not a place with one church but several. In 2 Thessalonians 1:1 he refers to the church as singular when taking about the church in Thessalonica but when he is 2 Thessalonians 1:4 he refers to churches plural when he is talking about all encompassing churches.
The Spirit of the Tyrannical churches is called ecumenicalism. When we lump the good with the bad we can ruin the whole batch. You ever notice that if you leave bad fruit in firth the good fruit eventually all the fruit goes bad. If you say that the church is all churches and all are the body of Christ then you must say that the Spanish inquisition is part of the body of Christ.
There is how ever one time when the church does have some what of a universal meaning that is the church of the first born. In Hebrew 12:26 but if you read the whole passage you will see it is a vision of heaven so there we will all be in one place in a real mage church so to speak.
The body of Christ is only used 4 times in my KJV and non of those times is it referred to our hinted at as being the same thing. We are both in the body of Christ but we do not belong to the same church.
I hope this did not anger you and perhaps you do not agree with my conclusions and that is okay we are still brothers I hope. When you said “The ekklesia is the Body of Christ.. plain and simple” to me it is not so plain and not so simple.
Your Brother in Christ
DARREN
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Permalink Reply by robert gilbert on -
Your package deal is not helping anyone. It may help you understand yourself and set yourself apart to be something special. Your take on history is not the final word. The church gained some acceptance under Constantine, but it was maybe not until Innocence that the pope truly became infallible and apostolic. Who cares? I am Catholic on paper in Germany. I am theoretically Nazarene on paper in the states. Nazarenes never asked me to leave the Catholic church. I am presently working to become a Secular Franciscan as well as a protestant pastor and what does that have to do with organic churches. Actually nothing, but my goals on paper will open more doors for me to share the gospel in Bavaria.
The true believer is someone who does God's will and is not someone who meets in a living room.
By the time there may be persecution in America, the house churches will have become such a big network that it will look and operate like an institution. One will not be able to distinguish the pigs from the farmers.
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Permalink Reply by Darren on
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I was born into a Catholic home. My parents raised me Catholic. I later joined a mega church called the vineyard then was discipled in a fundamentalist independent Baptist church. But none of those are me I am not a Catholic praise the lord. I am not a What ever you call people in an easy believism mega church and I am not even a Baptist. I am a follower of GOD’s word and so I know a lot about Christian history and I trust the bible complete. The old saying goes “God said it, I believe it and that’s it.
I am sorry you didn’t like what I wrote. But it is what I did have the Christian maturity to use scripture. This was not written to anger any one and I am surprised it has. It is just a new angle to look at the word church and to not assume that the body of Christ all believes in Christ and the turn Church or its root ekklesia from the Greek text. I was just trying to make a point that The word church is miss used but that really isn’t that big of a deal.
Then there is the historical aspect of it that is a big deal. Fact is weather you like it or not Catholics and Protestants killed many, many Christians. Hung them by the neck, burnt them alive, Drowned them, Impaled the on stakes and on and on. That is the truth, like it or not. Christian history is bloody and we have only really have had a calm in the storm for about 150 years of the 2000 years of Christian history. You know what they say it is always calm before the storm. This could be the eye of the hurricane or we will have it calm and easy till Christ comes nobody knows.
You know Robert I love you but your identity is not in the Catholic religion or the Nazarene religion it is in Christ. I do not care what your papers say it will all be burned away. All that matters my brother is that you are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
You said"The true believer is someone who does God's will and is not someone who meets in a living room."
Why do you say that because you do not think I do the will of GOD. Not always But I do not know what a true believer is because that could mean any thing. I do believe in the lord Jesus Christ (Romans 10:11) I believe he dies for my sins and I turned from my sin nature and turned toward GOD repented (Luke 13:3). I accepted I Believe that the bible is GOD’s word (2 Timothy 3:16). I don’t care if I am a true believer or not all that matters to me is what the bibles says and that I am born again and saved form an eternity of torment in Hell. AMEN.
You know what ever I say take it or leave it. But with scripture my brother those are GOD’s word so believe it. I will ask you to memorized 2 Timothy 3:16 for me and please give me a scripture to memorize ok. That would be cool. Then when we meet up in heaven we can ask each other if we had memorized each others scriptures.
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Permalink Reply by robert gilbert on
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I am sorry, but I cannot take up your offer in memorizing scripture. I am in the middle of a masters program with Liberty. Secondly, I am in Germany. If I wanted to impudent, I could say sure and you memorize in German and I memorize it in English. I think I would have the better deal. My mother language is English. I have been working out of a ecumenical bible worked out between the Catholics and the Lutherans. Luther's old bible can be difficult for understanding.
I start my work pretty soon. I guess you pulled a hair which I decided to check where it went.
Based on your boxes, it seems all very simple. It is not that simple. In Germany, the schools system requires religion. Religion means Catholic, Lutheran or Ethics. You have to take a course. If you were little Johnny, you would want to maybe taking communion with the Catholics or Lutherans because there is a big celebration with lots of gifts or would you rather be nothing. Think of all the aunties, uncles, grampas, grammas who look forward to this moment. Try explaining that to a child that we are not like any of those people. We have the Word of God. I am not battling with you, but it is something someone has to take to heart. Most who have a grip with the Catholic or Lutheran Church and find Christ, tend to be very combative towards their past denominations. They seem to yelling somewhere out there by themselves or seething with themselves. If you jump on a box, you will be by yourself. To talk about this situatioin is easy, but to live in it is very complicated. I could easily sign myself out and be a free evangelical. I put myself in the free evangelical box. They cannot agree between themselves any better. I have prayed about it over a long time. This is not a overnight decision. I take it as God opens the doors. Only God can open the doors that I am walking through. This situation is even more complicated when working with foster children. Not all my foster children come out of the same denominational direction.
Within your context, you might be successful in sharing Christ where you are at. Praise God. Within my context, I would find myself gropping in the dark. I have to adjust. I want to get beyond the walls of our preconceived ideas of God or our learned ideas and to Christ.
The killings and wars and murders have a lot to do with purifying the faith. If we are true to history, the watered down period happened way before the 3rd century.
I have to agree that we will disagree. When I get to heaven, I want to be ony a perfect beach and want to be paddling out to sunshine with perfect waves everyday. I hope you surf. Some want streets of gold. I think there are terrible for driving a porsches.
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Permalink Reply by Doreen Hutcheson on -
I really loved the last four paragraphs you wrote. Fellowship with the Living Christ!
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Permalink Reply by robert gilbert on
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Well said.
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