Pagan Christianity Book discussion

Comment

Comment by Cindy Skillman on January 6, 2010 at 10:49pm

Hey, Larry

I understand. I felt nervous about the whole thing when I began looking into it, too. Had the blessing to talk on the phone to John White (lk10.com) and he reassured me that house church folks are mostly bible believing people. Each house church will be different, and there are some non-scriptural beliefs out there, but the people in our group are pretty conservative. Of course, we're in western SD, and I'm sure there are house churches that are a lot more liberal than we are. It's just a group of people, after all. We have no universal authority except Jesus Christ, our interpretation of Him subject absolutely to scripture.

Most of us know the Bible well--which was partly why we became dissatisfied in the first place. If you think about it, most heresies take hold because the leadership has embraced them and then imposed them on the laity. In house church, heresy can only go so far. Pretty soon it runs up against someone who knows and understands the word, and then it ends up all by itself with maybe a few hangers-on. When it's embraced by the denominational hierarchy, it has more staying power.

I haven't met large masses of house church folk, but all the ones I have met have a real problem with the "emergent church," whatever that is in its current morphology. I have a few ideas of what it is, but it gives my spirit a genuine case of the creeps, which is enough to keep me away. Our group believes pretty much along the lines of the Apostles' Creed, and all the house church people I've met would agree. Again, I'm sure you could run across the occasional group of neoliberal emergent practitioners, but I haven't met them yet--online, perhaps, but not in the flesh. And the ones I have met online have all been practicing their neo-liberal emergent thing in a more traditional setting.

So far as I know, there have been no spectacular miracles whether real or fake. There have been wonderful healings, but not to the point that people have been lining the streets waiting for Frank's shadow to fall on them. On the other hand, none of the men doing the work of apostles (planting churches) have claimed to be apostles, ever, so far as I know. Maybe God's holding off until He's ready. He's been known to do that--think He's in charge of the show, and all. (wink)

It sounds like you liked "Pagan." Read some of the other stuff and judge for yourself. None of it is expensive. Or go to a conference and hear what they have to say and connect with some of the people there. If ours is too far away for you, contact one of the guys and ask about other stuff they have scheduled. It will absolutely be worth your time and your investment. You need to meet other house church people in the flesh. You really do.

Love and blessings, Cindy

Comment by Larry Cornell on January 6, 2010 at 8:00pm

I'm thankful for your kind responses. Surely you know that there have been many movements in the last four decades lead by people who claimed to be 'called out.' What evidences beyond teaching are given? Paul said the signs of a true apostle included signs and wonders. I guess I am also a little uncertain as to whether this is about Biblical christianity or perhaps you guys are neoliberal emergent practitioners. You can say 'Hey man! Its all good.' but without a Biblical standard where are you at? These are not small questions, and yes God does lead, but still He did not produce the Bible for no reason and a healthy does of Bereanism is appropriate with stuff like this. That is just good old biblical wisdom. But again I appreciate your kind responses and I guess I would like to hear more about what you are believing. I have come from an extensive experience with christianity and knowledge of church history and the Bible and theology. Are you saying you simply toss all of that out and just sort of go with the flow? I'm confused about that, honestly.

Comment by Gordon Brock on January 6, 2010 at 2:54pm

I would have to agree with Cindy, Larry. I assumed from your post that you were new in the journey of finding Christ alone outside of the confines of the IC, and that you weren't aware of the more teachings that have come out from those who have been in the conversation for a long time.
I would say that you seem to be bringing up "issues" that you might assume to be needed to work out, when they actually at this point do not exsist In our desire to focus on the centrality and supremecy of our Lord Jesus. We choose to go to Christ, and allow the Spirit and the Word to be concerned about the rest of the 'stuff'.
The writings and conferences are by those who have been 'called out' by the Spirit ( the definition of an apostle), and are to help us behave like a living organic body of Christ, and to help us come to 'Christ alone'.

Comment by Cindy Skillman on January 6, 2010 at 2:17pm

Hi, Larry

I'm not going to attempt to respond to your long post, but I will say this. Before you assume something about a person, maybe you should talk to them. Any of these guys involved in organic church will talk to you if you e-mail them.

They're ordinary guys who drive ordinary cars, fly tourist class, live in ordinary houses with their wives, and yes, they do pick up the knapsack (or carry-on) and travel to plant and nurture new bodies of believers. In fact that's what Milt and Gary will be doing in coming to "do" our conference--helping us to find one another and start coming together. As Milt's wife said to me, "We're people of the tent."

The sale of the books pays for the printing of the books and perhaps a little left over for expenses--of which there are many. These guys don't have gold plated faucets in their bathrooms.

And as for whether our government considers us to be subversives--Yes--As far as I know, Christians are still on the "terrorist watch list." Are we pacifists? I don't know--some of us probably are. It's not a subject that comes up, to be honest. We don't get into politics--we're citizens of the Kingdom. We have our ideas, but while politics is not a topic we avoid, we're mostly too busy talking about Jesus stuff. It's not an issue.

Seriously, a lot of the stuff you seem to be concerned about simply doesn't come up in organic church. We don't agree on everything, but we love one another. Some of us are vegetarians and some of us are hunters. Some of us have kids in the military, some would fight to keep our kids out of that. It's not an issue. Jesus is the only issue.

Let Him lead you one step at a time, Bro, and don't worry about the path ahead. He'll take you where He wants if you'll trust Him. That's my loving advice based on what He never ceases to say to me. One step at a time, in His footsteps. You'll get there.

Love, Cindy

Comment by Larry Cornell on January 6, 2010 at 12:15pm

I do not want to coopt the thread so maybe we should start another discussion about the topic of how the interstitial tissue of organic church should grow in light of scripture. There is a theme in the New Testament of the battle between the legitimate ministry of Paul and the ministry of the 'super-Apostles.' It is not reasonable to think the church today is free from this struggle either. Showing some caution about the movement would seem to be wisdom not a lack of faith. Is organic church seeking a total iconoclasm, or just an abandonment of IC, or just a new reformation? Marketing is profuse in Christianity today and I am not certain it isn't part of the problem. Big business is going to notice as soon as enough people go organic. The denominations are already noticing and starting to counsel their pastors to be on the watch. Furthermore, knowing well the modern history of the church, I know that into this organic church movement are going to come many with word of faith, kingdom now, latter rain, big business religion, and other types of backgrounds with distinct ideas about certain important factors in church, organic or not, and they will bring with them the culture of those movements. Apologetics is not unnecessary in this new venue. We already see the Jesus Movement filtering into organic church, the latter rain movement, and I am sure there will be problems with shepherding in many house churches just because of the lack of higher accountability. To those who know the love of God and walk with Him daily the Spirit leads when we turn to the left or the right, but certainly this thing is not as simple as just ramping up the marketing machine and stuffing some books into the 'insert here' opening. Anyone who thinks only about how to 'do' organic church may just be sewing new leather over the old wineskin. What is happening is much more foundational than that. Think also about the socio-political ramifications? Is organic church typically pacifist or is it going to carry along the neo-conservative notions of christian patriotism and military support for Israel? How serious is the government going to take organic church as a societal force for change? Will they embed operatives into house churches until they know there is no threat of right wing radicalization? A recent report to DOS suggests they are growing concerned about right-wing extremism and most likely would view house churches as the perfect breeding ground for the next Olypic Park Bomber. Now I know that a true church would not harbor something like that, though someone may go out from there choosing waht is evil, but the government post 9/11 does not understand that being secular by nature. Simple church is great, but life itself is not simple when you start to consider large numbers of people moving ideologically within society. My point I thought was very clear, we need to be careful about just plugging into the publishing empire and endlessly promoting book after book. Let's see some of our new apostle's get the napsack out and walk over to the nearest town as God leads and stay with whomever will open the door and preach as Paul showed us and Jesus taught His disciples. I'm not trying to upset anyone's vision of how life is or ought to be, I am just saying that Jesus Christ when compared to the world is a complete and total iconoclast. He is not at peace with the world. In fact the world hates Him because it lies under fear of death and the sway of the wicked one. Jesus is also completely trustworthy and by grace a knowable Person. Where does He compell us to go when rethinking Church in America, Church in general, modern society as it pertains to the Way...? The implications of 'Pagan Christianity' are very profound and they are going to cause a wide range of reactions and we should expect this. Rather than pre-packaged brands of christianity which do carry some guarantee (if not much freedom) we are entering into a time when the individual will be forced to grow to maturity and discernment in Christ because not everything you find in organic church can have the FDA label on it. (I'll cut if off, there is more that needs to be said but in time I am sure it will be..)

May the Lord bless us in the knowledge of Him.

Comment by Cindy Skillman on January 5, 2010 at 11:40pm

You're welcome, Larry. Your reply is a little hard for me to understand, though. In the sense that I'm not sure what you're trying to say?

Comment by Larry Cornell on January 5, 2010 at 11:00pm

Thank you for the invitation. I'm glad that there are people sharing insights and writing books and even having conferences. I guess if we are honest it is just another part of trying to get the word out in a modern society. I like Keith Green's example and I was saddened to see that his effort to give his music away was thwarted near the end of his life. What others choose to do is for them to decide before the Lord, we all have to take our stands in the courage God gives, but I personally feel strongly compelled to follow in the steps of George Meuller. I do not want to see this move of the Spirit be coopted and I am certain that this time the Lord is not going to allow it. If it can be done using the modern methods fine, but the goals of a true church that shakes the foundations of hell are what this is all about. The IC has largely failed to demonstrate the power to overcome sin. Still people are being awakened even as there is a great falling away. In fact the great falling away is happening within churches as people are dying spiritually in the pews and never actually leaving their church. I can see the vibrancy of this thing we already like to call 'organic church' but I do not see that a name is necessary, Jesus is the Way! We can also see from Paul's letters the struggles that most likely lie ahead. There is none of us of Apollos, and none of Paul, we are all of Christ.

Comment by Cindy Skillman on January 5, 2010 at 10:01pm

Another good place to go, Larry, is to read some of Milt Rodriguez's books. They're really, truly great. His latest, The Community Life of God, is stellar. We've asked him and Gary Welter to come and do a conference for us. If any of you are near Rapid City, SD (or even if you're not), you're definitely invited. The link is here.

Comment by Gordon Brock on January 5, 2010 at 9:19pm

Well. The answer to "where we go from here" is, now read Reimagining, From Eternity, and Finding Organic, Franks next three books in his series. They will answer that guestion for you (if you have not read them already that is). Welcome to the discussion!!

Comment by Larry Cornell on January 5, 2010 at 7:33pm

Not to jump in with both feet into the deep end but... I just finished Pagan Christianity and it leaves me only with the question now of whether the IC, more than just being less than what God wants for the church isn't in many ways antichrist and a form of bondage. I cannot tell you how tired I am of hearing people quote Malachi everytime the next building project arrives or it is time to add another pastor on staff. I am in every way dependent on God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ so it is not that I am looking down on people sincerely trying to find God. I just know from 20 years of trying that the IC leaves something out. Where do we go from here?

BTW, it is a blessing to see a group like Organic Church Today taking shape and I pray the Lord would bless and confirm the work it seeks to do.

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