Ch 8: Tithing and Clergy Salaries

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rod on April 27, 2009 at 8:01pm

Malachi is just so compelling especially in the "good old" King James:

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.


Mal 3:9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation.


Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].


Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

Those who don't believe in thiths point out several things:

1. ) The tithe was to go to the Levite a tribe of Isreal that did not get a portion of land. The tithe allowed them to minister to the other tribes, work in the temple etc. Thought there actually are decentants from Levi in Judism there would today be no point to pay tithes to them for most Christians.

2.) The tithe was composed of agricultural products, not money from the land which the Lord gave to the other tribes of Isreal IN Isreal. God gave them the land so they could support the Levitical priesthood.

Tithe paying is compelling for dedicated Christians but it supports all of the pillars of the Institutional church: a hierachy,with clergymen, a building,etc.

I think one of the compelling things for the tith for those who think they should pay it is that it is a principal not a spesific command. Christians could feel compelled at times to pay even more then 10%.

Permalink Reply by Gordon Brock on April 28, 2009 at 2:21am

The pastor at my previous IC did a teaching on tithing, and it was called 'Tithing, an Old Testament command, or an eternal principle?'.
He laid out verses for his point that 'tithing' was a Godly principle that is eternal, not just OT. He used the offerings with Cain and Able, he used the Melchisadek tithe, he used the Joshua tithe, he used Malachi, and he used Jesus teaching "you should have continued the former without neglecting the latter". I bought into it. Back then, I couldn't see that it really was a teaching on GIVING being an eternal principle and not TITHING. I have since come across teachings, including Frank's, that disprove most of these verses as 'tithing command verses'.
The pastor also said that it ALL belongs to God, and He only requires 10% back! I have now learned that it ALL belongs to God, and He could be expected to ask for it ALL back at any given time, and I better be ready to "cheerfully" do so!
We were blessed by tithing, as Rod says-mostly for the fact that we did it with pure hearts, but we have been blessed much more so now that we give to every opportunity that the Holy Spirit directs us to, since the money is freed up from having to rent a building and pay a salary. Many more people than the pastor and his family are being blessed by our giving of resources that God has given us (ok, you could say people were blessed by our giving to sustain the church and to facilitate 'new believers', but when it was always the same people at church, and the pastor's salary was over 80% of the income....not so much). I had never felt such freedom in giving, the ability to give, the joy to give, the desire to give, the immediate response to the Spirit (as appose to "checking the finances for what's left after the tithe") to give, than when we left IC and stopped tithing and started following Jesus instead.

Permalink Reply by Ryan Huling on April 28, 2009 at 10:34am

Good word Gordon.

We have experienced the same sort of thing in our giving. It's great to just give as we find people have need and the Lord lays it on our hearts to do so.

The tithe to me in most churches is basically paying your membership dues. Paying your share of the expenses. keeping up the building. salaries, programs, etc.. This is a big thing that keeps me from going back to IC. We'll be expected to tithe. All churches need the tithe to keep things running. I don't want to simply keep the church going. especially when I could give money to those who truly need it.

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on April 28, 2009 at 12:28pm

Before we left IC, I was having some serious questions--not about the tithe, but about how it was necessarily spent. For example, we had just re-furbished the downstairs men's bathroom. I hear it was really needed, and I'm sure this is not an exaggeration, however all that money went to fix up a bathroom used maybe two times a week by a group of men who were mostly long-time Christ followers, who happened for some reason to be downstairs instead of on the main level. You have to do stuff like this when you own a dedicated building, and I don't begrudge the men's bathroom, but it's not all that inspiring for people to give their very hard-earned money to do things like paying the church's electric bill, having the carpets cleaned, resurfacing the parking lot, etc. A lot of our older people really couldn't afford to tithe, but I suspect that most of them did it anyway.

And then we had the visiting missionaries talking about buying young women and little children out of slavery to the sex industry, supporting young widowed mothers whose homes and possessions have been reclaimed by the dead husband's family, and providing prostheses for involuntary amputees in communities afflicted by bands of machete-toting thugs. We could only afford to give to these causes when people pledged money to the missions budget over and above their tithes. That's really difficult for people who are not all that well-off in the first place to manage. And even if you do that, the church government is really obligated to pay the bills of the church first. So there's no guarantee your money will go where you think you're sending it (this is perfectly legal, btw, and most likely mandatory in the case of legitimate creditors trying to collect money owed).

Whenever I consider giving to an organization, I look it up online. There's a group that rates them and even tells you what the CEO makes a year. Yes, this does matter to me. Charity Navigator is the name of it. I like giving locally, and the nice thing about that is the money you place in the hand of a needy friend goes 100% toward meeting his need. On the other hand, groups that minister overseas meet needs we can hardly imagine here in our (for the moment) safe and prosperous homelands.

As for the tithe per se, I must confess that FV seriously shocked my world on that one. I would have vehemently defended the practice of tithing with all the arguments I'd heard all my life in the IC. To learn that the practice of tithing in the church (as opposed to the tithe in Ancient Israel, which is an entirely different animal), was a relic of medieval land leasing practices seriously amazed me. And how could I have missed this? Does Paul anywhere exhort the church to tithe? Does Jesus? The only mention I can think of that Jesus even gave of the tithe was to allow that certain Pharisees had done right by tithing, but that they had left the more important matters undone. Honestly, I almost skipped this chapter, because I knew I was going to disagree with FV on the subject and I didn't want to waste my time reading it. But . . . a) I was curious as I had never head the anti-tithing argument from anyone who agreed with it and b) FV had already surprised me by changing my mind on some other things I had been pretty sure of. Well, he did it again. Kudos, Frank!

Regarding the pastor's salary, it's maybe somewhat of a moot point as we've already rhetorically done away with the need for a full-time pastor holding the responsibility for complete care of the church. However, I really appreciated FV's point that becoming a "hireling", however dedicated an employee he/she may be puts the pastor in a really unenviable position. She's supposed to tell the truth, even to the point of stepping on toes (that would be the toes of the people who pay her salary). She has to bring in money to pay the church's bills (and, not least important, her salary), but people complain if she makes too big a deal of passing the plate, and in some churches, passing it twice--once for the church and once for the visiting speaker, say, is simply not a thing that you do. So right there, she's compromised twice. Sure, step on some toes--just keep your sloppy boots off of Dr. Joe Moneybags' Italian loafers if you please. And be sure to bring in enough money, but don't ask for it very often and certainly not very forcefully. Oh, and only preach what God tells you to preach. And make sure your church is supporting missions. And if a non-member shows up at the door desperate for help, well . . . she'll have to talk to the deacons . . . probably not, but we can try . . .

Plenty of other reasons not to dump this job on any one person, but we've already discussed that. How much better to have everyone working in their own gift, as well as working with their own hands to support themselves and to have some to give to the needy.

Permalink Reply by Paul childs on April 29, 2009 at 2:08am

greetings, first of all I'm a sinner and I need his mercies, secondly I'm a complete mess, and I need cleaning, thirdly I'm in bondage and I need a saviour to set me free.

I can speak with some authority on this issue, I am one who has sold my house and given a large portion in helping the building fund, I have tithed, I have given more then ten percent, I have given a son to another family, all of this I believed I was doing the right thing and impacting the kingdom. I started house churches, and I have been in the large church setting, I have led thousands to Christ (10,000 in one year)

Yet after all this I find myself searching, knocking, seeking, thirsty, he revealed to me without faith it's impossible to please him, Hebrews. yikes none of that took faith? Do I trust Him? Am I not pleasing?

In my humble opinion large church, institutional church, house church, small church, medium church, and yes organic church. Oh by the way I really get a sick feeling inside the large church so I am with most of you. back to my point. I have not seen transformation, I have not seen fully devoted, I have not seen an uncivilized approach, divine boldness, risk-taking faith, unshakable devotion, selfless community, consuming focus, loving our enemies, I know we are sinners, but i will not settle for miracles have ceased, and power was for Jesus, the disciples, and we only get to use intellectual minds, bloggs, and so on.

ok ok ok. I'm new I'll stop But I guess what I'm looking for is someone, anyone, young, old i don't care, someone who lives there life transformed, regenerated, new creation, bold, on fire, passionate, miracles, signs, wonders, anything like i read in the bible. then please can we meet. If not then please can we all come to the conclusion or some come to the conclusion that we desperately need Jesus to heal our land, our hearts, our soul. will we humble ourselves, seek him, repent.

I hope to hear from someone on fire for God. I need you,

so tithes and offerings. Hmmmm I have heard it in the old testament, Which the word is God, and I have read scriptures in the New testament where paul talks about getting support and sending support, i read where he tellls the church to have the money ready in the beginning so when he comes he can collect it.
i have read lots of books also and read lot's of bloggs. I leave you with this whatever you choose to do. I hope you first hear the Father, secondly do it in Love. and yes it's better to give then recieve.
If I had it my way we would all commit to tithing, then WE yes We would go and make disciples, or we would give the money to help an orphan, or we would help a neighbor in need, or I love giving, I love community, i love the thought of having enough money to actually impact others lives.

Blessings to all of you.
paul

Permalink Reply by Ryan Huling on April 29, 2009 at 10:41am

Hi Paul,

I was just thinking about how the power of God seems largely missing from the church in this country. When we read the Bible we see God's power throughout. He's the same God we claim to serve. Logically His power should be evident in his people, his church. It amazes me that churches settle for less than God. for mere teaching about or even good works in his name. But they don't seem to really desire Him or seek after Him or committ their lives and churches to Him. It seems to me that knowing Christ and doing his will is the point. If we as his body would really come together without an agenda other than seeking Him and submitting our selves to Him. I believe He would move in power among His people. I hope to find people in my are willing to do this. sorry, this has nothing to do with tithing but I felt a connection of sorts with what Paul said and wanted to share.

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on April 29, 2009 at 12:25pm

You know what? Let's have a discussion on this. Power, I mean. This is a subject that has become really, really important to me over the past year or so, and I've been seeking God about it. Sorry, Paul--I have no spectacular miracles to report to you. I've prayed for a few sick people and seen them healed--like Jesus in Galilee, only the healing sometimes took a little longer than Jesus' healing probably did. If I (or one of the others) were to start a discussion on this subject, who would be interested in joining?

Permalink Reply by Ryan Huling on April 29, 2009 at 12:55pm

I'm in. Got into an awesome discussion on facebook today about the lukewarmness of the church. I challenged some people with the notion of simply seeking Him. submitting ourselves to Him. People got fired up. church people at that. fired up in a good way. 3 so far want to have a 24 hr. prayer meeting of sorts. The one guy said he was going to see if his pastor would set it up. I'm all for people seeking The Lord Jesus and giving their lives over to him wherever. Even if it's just people over the internet agreeing together, I believe God will move and really is moving already. He always is. you know what I mean, I think. In my reading of Acts one thing has always stood out to me. That God moved in power after His people came together in prayer. Buildings shook, So lets find a way to unite together in prayer on really just seeking Him and submitting to Him.

Permalink Reply by Rod on April 29, 2009 at 1:19pm

One of my focuses on group prayer is Acts 12:12. There they were praying earnestly it would seem for Peter. One of thier number had been killed so I like to think they were praying for the safe release of Peter and as they were praying he appeared, which must of been like a answered prayer!

Permalink Reply by Rod on April 29, 2009 at 1:03pm

Hi Cindy, I could see myself joining, but not sure what I would say. Like you I can recall praying for some sick people and they healed. I have not prayed to move a mountian nor have I heard of any so praying and a mountain moving. Math 17:20. Maybe we are talking about power of faith?

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on April 29, 2009 at 3:39pm

Sounds awesome! I'll set it up--maybe this evening if I can pry my sweetie away from the computer, but I'll be late getting home tonight as I'm teaching an evening class. If any of you would like to set it up, that would be great, too. Just be sure to send me an invite. If I don't get it done today and I don't get an invitation from one of you, then tomorrow morning for sure I'll get it going.

God is not a respecter of persons. He's raising the dead in South America, appearing in person to seeking (sometimes non-seeking) Muslims in the Middle East, performing incredible healings in India. He wants to do it here, too, for us. Much more effective than apologetics, I'll bet.

Permalink Reply by Rod on April 29, 2009 at 4:32pm

Paul speaks of on fire. I've heard about people being on fire for Christ in Africa or Red China. People are spoken of as wanting to share Jesus as they are walking down the road with strangers. I'd have to admit that I am not that on fire. I might try to not make eye contact as I'm walking down the road . I don't talk about religeon generally with strangers thinking it a politness. Maybe third world countries are less jaded and more speritual. Maybe our affluiance works against us in some speritual way. I'm thinking of the Rich young man that Jesus encounters who asks what muse I do to inherit eternal life. Maybe as we are getting less wealthy we will be more speritual?

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