Chapter 10 Christian education

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Permalink Reply by Gordon Brock on July 18, 2009 at 10:42pm

There's a bible college here in Sacramento that advertises on the "christain radio" station, telling people how they need to come to learn for that 'ministry' that they feel called to....they say "we are what the body of Christ should look like, multi-denominational, multi-ethnic, etc etc...". I laugh, cuz they aren't even close to what the body (ecclesia) should look like. And, since when do we need to get man-made, man-led instructions for what the Spirit's gifting is suppose to be within us?
Now, as far as your question of Jesus' command about "teaching all nations"...I'm curious as to what command you are referring because that doesn't sound familiar..?

Permalink Reply by William Boland on July 18, 2009 at 11:21pm

Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on July 19, 2009 at 4:15pm

It's not enough to train the mind--even assuming that's happening at the average IC, and listening to a lecture with no interaction is a notoriously poor way to impart knowledge anyway. We do need to know and understand what the bible says (those of us blessed to have access to a bible or two or three).

Training the heart (or the spirit, if you will) is the important part. Without this, you just make Pharisees. And of course, no sermon or Sunday school lecture or similar is going to accomplish the discipling/mentoring of the heart. This is a task for our group of legendary friends to accomplish together, for one another and with one another. Yes, we need to know what the bible says and means, and yes it's important to have people who dedicate their lives to studying out what Paul really meant when he said . . . to that culture and in that language. However, without training the heart--without that connection at the deep-down spirit level with God's Spirit, all the head knowledge in the world isn't good for much.

This is a vitally important point to make in our culture of worshiping rationality. It is the heart that matters. It is the heart that matters. That is what God looks at.

Permalink Reply by Ryan Huling on July 28, 2009 at 3:14pm

Ahhhh What a Swelled cranium I have! Study, Study Study! I've spent sooooo much time studying. Has is changed my heart? Made me in love with Christ? There is certainly value in study. But waaayy to much emphasis is placed on it in the present church culture.

I bought the hype , hook , line, and sinker, let me tell you.. I could very well be Pastor Ryan right now if I would have made certain decisions. That thought stroked my ego my desire to be important, relevant, etc... This is probably a common occurence in churches. I am thankful that I didn't go that route. How many ego driven churches and ministries do we have?

I'm not sure I'm mentally or emotionally stable to say anything more right now, so that's all for now.. Other than: THanks to William for posting this discussion. I hope any of you on here would feel free to do that any time you like. My copy of the book is still loaned out. or maybe stolen,,, time will tell.

Permalink Reply by Nigel Fareed Mohammed on March 1, 2010 at 3:02pm

I left the IC as you folks call it about four years ago but never bought into it as it killed my heart and killed me spiritually. And it was because my experience of church was lived only in the head. Apparently it was after the Puritians that the Reformed conservative camp ditched deep matters of the heart and the conservative camp has not ministered to the heart ever since so i understand. But embracing the other extreme where it is overly subjective and existential while neglecting the Word is no good either. The church is so polarised between these two extremes and this is why i am drawn to the bottom up grass roots organic perspective. I imagine it allows for the development of relationships that are more real than IC yeah? But how do people in an organic church engage with culture? Does it address the problem of the sacred-secular divide so deeply ingrained in the IC? Is it holistic ie creation, fall, redemption and consummation in interaction and application? Would love to hear from you. I have just joined this set up. Been in Adullams Cave for too long fighting alone. Am looking for an Organic church and willing to relocate in the UK or abroad. Any advice, comments, contact details? Nigel

Permalink Reply by Ryan Huling on March 2, 2010 at 5:24pm

Hi Nigel. When you say Adullams cave is that the allegory by Plato? If so I can identify with that allegory so well. It fits so well with the church situation I think. I wrote a paper for my philosophy class on that. It's a fictional story based on the cave allegory. Its on my blog if you wanna check it out. Some of it is based on my own story and some of it is fiction. or wishful thinking. or dreaming or faith, hope or something. I think the primary way organic church engages in culture is by being the church rather than just going to church. It is more of a lifestyle approach with every member having the responsibility and opportunity to function in a community. The way the church is supposed to be. Hence why it is so difficult to attain. Although there are those on here that do meet organically or at least have a go at it.

Permalink Reply by Nigel Fareed Mohammed on March 3, 2010 at 5:43am

Hi Ryan, thanks for your reply. No not Plato, Adullams Cave is where David spent some time after being stripped to the core as God prepared him for his calling. 1 Samuel 22v1 but looked at in the context of chapters 19 to 22 we can see what David lost, his job, his wife, his mentor, his closest friend. But these 400 guys came to him who were in debt, in distress and discontented. He became their leader and he went on to pursue his calling. I think we can get stuck in a metaphoric cave especially as men cos we isolate ourselves. I think the holistic calling as far as i can understand it is for us to work on and develop our manhood, our working lives, our relationship with women/wives, local church (whatever appropriate expression of church is to us in the season we're in), community, and missions. But yeah how does Organic Church engage this? I think it has to start with just working on making real connections that we don't get in a professionalised institution and work from there. I think men who have worked out their gifting and calling can initiate and energise toward lasting change. I'm not saying I'm one of those guys cos I was never spiritually mentored or fathered but i think that it has to be more than filling a vacuum just for the sake of alleviating loneliness/isolation. Hope you can hear what i am trying to say Ryan. Where do you live man? Nigel

Permalink Reply by Ryan Huling on March 3, 2010 at 11:20am

Nigel, I can definetely relate to the Adullams cave thing. I have lost my mentor (s), job and closest friend. In a sense. I havent worked at at job for a while. I am currently going to college and being a stay at home dad. until I get a degree and get a job. I feel like God has definetely stripped things down for me. I am blessed with supportive wife and kids though. I haven't quite lost it all. Mainly on the mentor and friend side. All of my mentors have let me down significantly. that's putting it mildly. My once best friend who mentored me when I first became a Christian is now convinced that the bible is made up from ancient egyptian writings. This is a man who was on his way to becoming a Pastor. was at one time the most on fire Christian I've known. I considered him to be my best friend and brother in Christ for years. There were a few others I would have considered mentors in my life that have basically left the picture. I do occasionally hear from them, but no significant relationships now exist. It's sad for me because these were men who I really looked up to and have had great impact on my life. While I can look back and be thankful for the positive that these men have contributed to my life I struggle with not having a current mentor I can really look to and trust.

You talk about the importance of men who have worked out their calling. when you say that I think of something Viola says about leadership in the organic church. I think others have commented on this as well. The principle is that organic leadership is based on function and not title. In organic church one learns how to function in His or Her gifting or calling and lives it out in relation to others in the body. Leadership is not something that is granted because of education or status but is gained as it is worked out in a body of believers. When the New Testament talks about elders it is referring to older more mature brothers who have gained the capacity to lead over time not Pastors who have been to seminary. Neil Cole also teaches on this.

Permalink Reply by Scott McCrae on February 22, 2011 at 10:10pm

This chapter on training is one of the key problems of the IC. We learn by doing not just by being able to reproduce a list.

Faith has to be exercised and in this work of faith is the true learning. This was a very good chapter.

 

Teaching by discipleship of working together and learning together. This takes real love. To work with someone on his problems at his house, burns time so to speak. Yet if we are motivated by love it is not burning time but is time well spent. It is demonstrating that we really care about the other person.

 

Don't get me wrong. I study the Bible a lot.  We should study the Bible to live by faith and love others. Not to tell others how much we know.

 

Spiritually we learn by going. Matthew 9:13