Chapter 4 The Sermon

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jim London on January 22, 2011 at 11:04pm

Hi, Scott. I notice your statement, " As one gets older in the Lord the need for sermons becomes less"

What is it about sermons that you regard as helpful to growth in Christ? I'm not asking about teaching. I'm wondering specifically about "sermons".

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on January 22, 2011 at 11:34pm

I'm not sure how much we really do "get out of" sermon style teaching. The sermon in itself isn't a bad thing (assuming it's a good sermon, of course), but if it ends there, I believe we've lost the best part of it. I still listen to sermons, and occasionally we will listen to one with the church as well. There are a lot of things new to us with OC, a lot of old filters to be exposed, etc., and lots of -- not new, but new ways of looking at things -- to consider. But you really lose the benefit of the sermon if the church doesn't get a chance to give their input and chew (together) on the things that particularly stood out to us. That helps to cement the things God is saying to each and to all of us in a given message.

 

I've listened to hundreds -- thousands of sermons in my lifetime and I remember very, very few of them. I'm sure that I learned things from them, in the course of hearing the same things over and over and over and over again. I'm REALLY sure that I learned a lot of false things from many of the sermons I've heard. That's another reason the church should be able to discuss what we're listening to amongst the brothers and sisters. When questionable things come up, we can mull them over together. Maybe we'll become convinced the speaker was right. Maybe we won't be so sure. Maybe we'll disagree, and that's all right since we do agree on Jesus. But without the discussion the sermon is all but useless imo.

 

That said, for one man or even a small team of men to stand in the pulpit week after week and expostulate to the rest of us is nothing short of ridiculous. He becomes exhausted and we become fat and lazy and forget how to hunt for our own food and bring it home to share with our brothers and sisters. It's good to listen to a sermon from a church worker (such as Frank Viola and others) from time to time, but it is not good if that's all we do. We need to go to God for ourselves, and we need to have the opportunity to bring what we receive from Him back to the family and share, get their input, etc. This is how the body grows (or one way, anyhow).

Permalink Reply by Mark Collings on January 23, 2011 at 1:04am

In my experience in organic church, teaching can come in various forms.  We reason together as a way of learning from one another.  We have people come into our gathering to instruct and equip us.  We have also used videos of gifted people to teach the group. In all cases, the teaching served to meet the need of the body at a point of time.  We experienced problems once when a single person wanted to assert teaching "authority" over the church.  People who disagreed with this person were isolated and accused of being arrogant, dangerous or unteachable.  We have to be aware that narcissistic tendencies sometimes follow gifted individuals.  So, our  group tries to keep a balance in the forms and sources of instruction that come in to mature and equip us, and avoid "sole sourcing" from one teacher. This is healthy. In the video Jim London posted, Upside Down Leadership, one fellow remarked that the gifted teachers in the organic church are usually the ones without speaking gifts or magnetic personalities.

Permalink Reply by Scott McCrae on January 23, 2011 at 3:53pm

Mark,
2 Corinthians 10:10
For they say, "His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible."

You are right about teaching comes from bad speakers. They can learn to a point the art of speaking. Yet I think God uses those who are not naturally gifted so they will rely on Him for support and help.

The issue of disagreement is interesting in church. In IC there is no ability to express disagreement so it festers. Also there is different areas of growth. Those who have grown more in the Lord will see things differently than new Christians.

If all have had an ability to express themselves and there is still disagreement at least there was an effort to come to an agreement. I would hope they were not just rejecting what the Bible says. But love is really not love unless there is a point of disagreement or a need that needs meeting. Love reaches beyond oneself to help others. It is not self seeking.

Cindy,
I agree with you.
I have a lesson I have learned from bicycling. You eat so you can ride. Riding builds strength and eating allows you to use your strength. Riding without eating, causes you to get burned out. I've experienced that. All I can think about is getting to any store and scarfing down a bunch of food. Eating without riding just makes me fat. I don't get stronger at all by just eating.

In church we get fed by the sermon. But the church does a bad job of enabling us to use what we have learned so we become spiritually fat. And this causes arrogance. 1 Cor 8:1

I too have listened to 1000's of sermons. I worked this morning and I listened to a sermon on my mp3 player broadcast thru my truck radio.

We don't learn by listening, we learn by doing.
Heb 5:14 Solid food is for the mature because of PRACTICE they can discern between good and evil.
Heb 5:8 Jesus learned obedience by what He suffered.
Eph 4:15 Speaking the truth in love we grow.
Matt 9:13 Go and learn

Jim,
A long time ago when I was 20 :) I felt church was a waste of time more or less. I decided then to take notes of the sermons. As I took notes I learned things that helped me overcome weakness in my spirit. I learned more about how to walk in faith instead of my flesh. I learned how to pray for the sick. I learned a lot. But using what I learned was not well thought out or practiced.

Sermons vs teaching? To me the sermon is a way to teach. It is a way to pass information.

Discussion is better than a sermon. But it has been my experience that the preacher has no time for the common man. Not that he chooses directly not to have time. It is just the structure of the IC and many crowding around the preacher. He is swamped.

Discussion has its weakness as well. Some hog the floor and others can't get a word in.

I like books a lot better. You can go back to reread what is hard to get. So I have created booklets out of the sermons and learn from my notes. How many church goers do this? Not many.

Love can't be expressed by a man preaching that has no time to talk to the people. A discussion leader has the ability to care for the people he is teaching because he has time to talk and answer questions and unpack the lesson. So I am talking myself out of the importance of sermons.

Permalink Reply by Jim London on January 23, 2011 at 6:30pm

Hi, Scott. Regarding sermons, you say, "Sermons vs teaching? To me the sermon is a way to teach. It is a way to pass information."
I recognise that the intention of sermons is to teach. I was never a vocational church worker (what, in IC, would be called "in ministry" or "on staff"), but within two years of entering life in Christ I had free access to the pulpit wherever I was, so I've "preached" a ton of sermons over the years. On average, a sermon has not only the years of institutional "training" (Bible college and/or seminary) behind them, but also the accumulation of reading and personal study, etc, etc. Then, each one takes 12-15 hours to put together and hone into shape -- which for the past decade includes all the nifty supporting media that we've been using. While the sermon has had some positive influence upon the church, it is, in my view, really overrated as teaching. Its fruit is relatively small. Church-goers generally look upon the sermon as the central component for their gathering, and generally measure the value of the "service" and the suitability of "the pastor" on the basis of their experience in hearing a "good sermon" -- one delivered with arresting oratorical skills, captivating stories, the right amount of "personal touch", some humor, clarity of flow, and true-to-the-Text, etc. It's these criteria that make the sermon-crafting a two-day task, every week!

What I notice, by contrast, is that Jesus taught contextually, along the way. It was also integrated into the discipling along with demonstration of power -- healing, casting out of demons. Teaching, for Him, was in-life for the most part. Spontaneous. Where birds were flitting about, where shepherds could be seen among their flocks, next to a newly restored blind man or at a well. Not at a regular hour shown on the clock, not in a 12-part series disconnected from the actual at-the-moment needs of the listeners.

I notice that He taught in conversation (i.e. interactive discourse) with a Samaritan woman, a Syro-Phoenician woman, a centurian, a Mary, a Pharisee, etc, etc and that those encounters bore fruit almost immediately!

What I do know as a life-time educator, is that the lecture format of instruction is the lowest on the scale of teaching methods out of all methods of teaching that we employ, when change is the desired outcome. Observation is higher on the scale. Observing and doing is higher yet. Observing and doing in context is the most fruitful. And this points me toward a different practice of discipling one another than is practiced in a weekly assembly of large numbers of attenders, even if they do take notes!

Sermons might have a role, I think, but not as a primary tool for transformation. The state of the church, generally, measured by biblical indicators of God-life, should have had us tossing the sermon long ago if it was supposed to nurture life. It hasn't passed the test for discipling effectively for hundreds of years!

And that's the end of my sermon about sermons!

 

Permalink Reply by Scott McCrae on January 23, 2011 at 7:37pm

Jim,
Well I guess we in Organic Church Today all agree that the sermon is not effective.

What I have been doing for the past 2 years is preach most Sundays at an assisted living home. I have asked that they ask questions or share testimonies. We do get prayer requests but not much else.

This has been good training for me. The study and prep time is about 4 hours. But when I get up and preach I get off the notes almost every week. Sometimes I start with the first verse and never look at my notes again. I spend a lot of time in the Bible and come up with maybe 4 Bible studies a week. So I have a lot of material to share that is fresh.

Before this I had not spoken publicly in 24 years, and business staff meetings were a pain for me to speak in. I am not a natural speaker by any stretch of the imagination. I pray in prep for at least an hour. And still wake up in the middle of the night praying over my message, and for God to give me strength. It is a faith work.

Now I stay after the service and talk to the residents. I think this is the best part of the ministry. I go by at times and visit them during the week before their supper.

I have offered a mid week Bible study and discussion, but they weren't interested.

I don't think that it is just this age group that wants the sermon. That is what most expect to their own hurt.

My future vision is to reach the unchurched who don't have this bias. Discipling one or a few to have them also disciple others. Starting with who is Jesus in the Gospel of John then touching the highlights of Ephesians. But this only as a starter to also go with me and minister to the needy or as God leads.

 

New Christians need a foundation of teaching that sermons would provide. But this mainly comes because they are not in the Bible themselves the way they should be. A daily discussion with a small group would be better. Having both would be best.

Permalink Reply by Mark Collings on January 28, 2011 at 10:05am

I recall someone commenting on a preacher's sermon "He was so fired up, he got convicted by his own preaching". My basic understanding of the purpose of the sermon is to convict me of something...a shortcoming or error in my attitude or  behavior. Part of the pagan institutional influences in the church has to do with the view of God promoted in the religious practices of the church.  God to the pagans was remote and removed from their lives. They had to go through spiritual exercises and disciplines in order to "reach" their god. Or sacrifice something to connect with god.    The solution, if you like, that Jesus brought could be paraphrased "I become you, now you can become me" .  Not that we become gods, but we can allow God to live in us.  That is sort of the premise C Baxter Kruger uses when describing the triune relation we are invited into through Jesus as adopted sons and daughters.  I never heard a sermon promoting that perspective. Rather, I heard the preacher bring a message that asked me to do something in order to get closer to God.  Not that behavior modification on my part is not important, or learning, or discipline  (as Jesus spent a significant amount of time instructing the disciples)  the fact seems to be that Jesus said not to do as the pagans did...you are to bring the father that lives through you to others (as he himself was doing).  Sounds to me that the demonstration of our own lives (as adopted children of the living God)  was the message.

Permalink Reply by Scott McCrae on January 29, 2011 at 7:57am

Sermons will bring to our attention something we are not familiar with, correct wrong action, confirm our actions, or be teaching that is incorrect and we need to judge it according to the Scriptures.

Jesus becomes like us so we can become like Him in the respect of living with Him and His power in us.

Mark do you have any links to messages of Jesus living through us?

What is the difference between:
I can do all things, because Jesus strengthens me.
and
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13