Ch 4: Reimagining the Gathering Place

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Gordon Brock on August 11, 2009 at 3:40pm

I realized this same thing in my own 'home group'. We set off doing a study of something, but as time went on, we ended up meeting each week, chatting about our week, and getting to know each other. Since I was on the 'leadership team' of the church, my methods were not questioned by the pastor (who usually had his hand or some say in what we did in home groups..."accountability" ya know...). My home group was the only one of about 4 still standing within the year, and I attributed it to the family atmosphere that was created. This was early on in my Holy Spirit awakening to the IC, so I did not connect it at that time, that that is what 'church' should have looked like.
But you see the popularity all around of home groups as an extension of the local IC. People love the intimacy, the relaxed teaching, the fellowship, and the more..um...safe?..atmosphere of learning to use giftings. We just didn't realize that instead of being an extension of 'the church', these groups should BE the church. Instead of being dictated by church leaders who when where how to have a group, they should be dictated only by Christ through the Spirit.
I would have to disagree with your statement, Ryan, "i myself have no experience of a true organic church", because you DID get a taste, and a preview through this small group, what church really should be.

Permalink Reply by Victoria Deppe on August 11, 2009 at 10:11pm

At the Orlando conference, Frank said "You will never feel at home until you have been fitted as a living stone into the House of God." That so resonated with me.

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 29, 2009 at 3:17pm

Yes, Gordon, and Victoria, "Living Stones" and "fitted together" are nice plattitudes. The Greek and the context for those references, however are diverse. When groups are seeking to forge relationships, a clear understanding always emerges as to who does what, when and how. It is just nature. Even if the 'understanding' is that we demonstrably restrain ourselves from doing anything in the same way as we did before, we are still following that social nature.

Why not take the direction from the Lord. "Go and make disciples." "Teaching them to obey all I have taught you." If you don't know what else to do, share the Bible and what the Lord is teaching you.

Permalink Reply by Ryan Huling on August 16, 2009 at 3:03pm

What to do in the meantime, while we wait to be fitted as living stones into the house of God. That's the struggle I face. Seek the Lord and trust Him. what else is there?

Permalink Reply by Howie Cruthers on August 16, 2009 at 3:19pm

Just enjoy building fellowship with others. Be intentional as you can, but enjoy the process. The Lord will build/is bulding the church in your locality. Ever hear that Audio Adrenaline song "Big House"? It makes me think of a big family enjoying each others' company. And in the midst of that, some great things happen. Have you ever read "So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore"?

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 29, 2009 at 3:09pm

So, Ryan, what happened? You speak of it as though it were past tense. What changed in your OC, simple church, or home church so that those blessings evaporated?

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on August 29, 2009 at 3:27pm

Of course, Ryan, I have to agree. All of us in evangelical churches have always said this. The structure or building or facility is not the church, the collective members of persons who are mutually in relationship to the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ are. Nothing new there. OC did not invent that idea. All the early church fathers wrote about it.

If any of you in this movement have what you think is a "true organic church" I wish you would invite me to visit and observe to see how it is different. I disagree with whomever it was in this forum who said that a true organic church cannot be a small group extending out of a larger church body. If that were true none of the churches of the first century would ever have been formed! All were extensions of existing bodies. Missionaries went out, preached formed believers, stayed and discipled for a time, and then moved on to plant other churches. And they were called churches (called out ones) because they were not called out of other churches but called out of the world of sin and self. Other disciplers and trainers would follow up with the church planter and local leaders (deacons and elders) were appointed under their approval. None of the local churches ordained their own new leaders, but leaders had to meet certain standards. Just because one said of himself that he was called to lead a local church were they permitted to do so.

In the Letters to the seven churches, in Revelation 2-3, Jesus had harsh words for churches where they had permitted inappropriate thinking and acting leaders into leadership. The members were called upon to censor bad leaders and even purge them. They were not told to leave their local bodies because of the bad leaders.

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on August 29, 2009 at 11:48pm

Hi, Daniel

From reading your comments, I get the feeling that you're angry. Maybe I'm reading that wrong--sometimes it's hard conveying what you're really trying to say in a bulletin board format. In any case, there's no need to feel threatened. I realize that in a lot of places you will find simple or house church people saying harsh things about the traditional church. That is not our focus here. We believe God has called us to simple/organic church. One must follow one's own calling, and if He has called you to traditional church, well and good. No one here is going to try to convince you that you're wrong.

As for visiting to observe, you're welcome to come hang out anytime you like, but that's not the point of Organic Church. The point is relationships and growing into the body of Christ together. That requires more than observation. OC is not a meeting; it's a family and a lifestyle. We've none of us arrived, but we're on the journey we believe God has led us to, and also wish you well in the journey He has set you on.

Love, Cindy

Permalink Reply by Daniel C. Elliott on September 1, 2009 at 10:34am

Thanks Cindy for pointing out that perception. Nope, not angry at all. I'm questioning-- trying to understand what people are saying about the OC. At the same time, Il am trying to point out that much of what is given as illustrative descriptions in an OC, is going on, as well, in what most would call an IC or, at least one-- the one I serve in. Also I have tried to point out alignment with Scripture or mis-allignment in what some say in explanation of their OC experience. No anger, no animosity, no criticism of anyone only questions and clarifications. If you can point out what exactly it was that gave you the perception of anger, I will work to avoid such phrases in the future.
In His love and service
Dna

Permalink Reply by Cindy Skillman on September 1, 2009 at 11:17am

Hi, Daniel

I'm glad to learn that you aren't coming from a defensive position. It would be easy for one dedicated to traditional church to feel that way, having read some of the unloving things that have been said on some (though I haven't read such here) discussion boards. To be sure, there are people with a legitimate complaint, but that shouldn't be the focus. Dealing with that sort of thing is one of the purposes I see for what many of us call "detox," though there are other things to "detox" from than mistreatment. (passivity during "services," for example) I think my projection of your mood was more a general thing rather than anything specific--sorry I can't be more helpful. It may have merely been my own pov in reading.

It's not so much that IC (not intended to be a derogatory term) is bad, but more that I believe OC is the direction God is moving me/us now. In order to explain to you all the reasons I believe OC is the point of the spear just now, I'd have to write a book, and this isn't the place for that. There are a lot of books available, though, and I could recommend The Rabbit and the Elephant by Tony and Felicity Dale as a nice, easy read and a pleasant, though accurate place to start. I kind of get the idea from your comments that you haven't done a lot of reading on OC/SC, because you seem to assume the need for a pastor. Yes, we do need leaders, but that is a position often in flux, depending on who the HS is working through in a given situation. When we get together, it's hard to say who will be the leader, and for how long. We all have different gifts, and the one with the appropriate gift or word from God for the day generally seems to take on a leadership role. I don't know how to tell you any differently from this. It is/has taken us a long time to get the the pre-school stage we're at now, and there's so much more to learn.

I'll just start with one of my big reasons to believe that OC is the way God is moving now. First, He has and does move through IC--no one is disputing that--and if that's where He has you, that's where you should be. If you're in a leadership position, I'm sure you've at least heard of the spiritual giftings tests available for churches to use as a tool to help their congregations discover the gifts God has given them. Why is it, do you suppose, that these people, many of whom have been involved in good churches all their lives, have no idea what their gifts are? Your experience is not the same as mine, I'm sure, but in my experience, only a few people in a traditional church ever have the opportunity to use their spiritual gifts during the service (or even during Sunday school). More often, they may have the chance during an off-site or during-the-week small group, but often that doesn't happen, either. The chief exceptions to this seem to be gifts of helps and/or hospitality, exercised by operating the sound system, ushering, greeting, preparing the coffee and cookies, etc.

In OC, this doesn't really come up. Everyone is expected and encouraged to use their individual gifts, and it doesn't take long to find out what those gifts are. One lady in our group has the phenomenal gift of being able to put pretty much anyone at ease and make them feel wanted or welcome. She doesn't stand at the door wearing a greeter's pin (how absurd, in a house church!), but just does what comes naturally. Several of the men and women have teaching gifts. This is exercised in a natural and interactive way during our meetings and daily life. Many of us have the simple gift of prophecy--nothing predictive--just uplifting and edifying one another. Some of us like to and are able to give, and we have members in need, so that works out well. These gifts are used (sometimes ineptly) during our various gatherings and get-togethers in a natural and unforced way. We're learning, as all children must do, and we have a long way to go, but the Holy Spirit is building us together into a habitation for God--fitted together as living stones, as Victoria said, from Frank Viola. I think the living stones thing is explained by God putting us into that perfect place for us--the place in which we were designed to be and to contribute what He's given each of us.

Well, I am in danger of writing that book I said I wouldn't write . . .

God bless and prosper you where He puts you,

Cindy